Nightmare drive

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661-Pete
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by 661-Pete »

Vantage wrote:I've never seen a bike with a clutch or an engine with which to use engine braking. A great many of us are going down these same steep hills with paltry rim brakes, whilst heavily loaded, on much thinner tyres and no suspension. Or seatbelts. Or airbags.
It kinda makes you wonder about our sense.

Yes but, even fully laden, a bike weighs a lot less than a car. I always use engine braking descending a steep hill. I remember an occasion, many years ago driving an older car, when I did not, I relied on the brakes. I experienced 'fade': frightening in itself, when the brake surfaces overheat and lose friction - similar to what happened to the OP's clutch. Brake fade happens less now that most cars have disc brakes instead of the old drum brakes, but still it's bad driving to rely on brakes.

As regards "our sense" - you're right - we cyclists are a bunch of crazies, aren't we! :lol:
Last edited by 661-Pete on 30 Jun 2014, 10:07am, edited 1 time in total.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Vantage wrote:I've never seen a bike with a clutch or an engine with which to use engine braking. A great many of us are going down these same steep hills with paltry rim brakes, whilst heavily loaded, on much thinner tyres and no suspension. Or seatbelts. Or airbags.
It kinda makes you wonder about our sense.


Never seen a fixie?

Heavily loaded is still 10% of the weight of a small car - and of course our "paltry" brakes are still 2-3 times the diameter of a car brake discs.

We also get the benefit of aero braking - not something a car enjoys - and much wider roads (think about it...)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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661-Pete
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by 661-Pete »

Pete Owens wrote:At the risk of feeding a Troll...

Don't worry, the OP probably won't be back - hasn't been online yet today.

When someone concludes a post with the words:
R Trahearn wrote:For the many good cyclists I give every good wish.
...my eyes start to glaze over. What exactly is a 'good' cyclist? It can mean many things...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
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BeeKeeper
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by BeeKeeper »

Paulatic wrote:Having just gone up the hill using street view I see many of the passing opportunities are on the RHS. If I was cycling up that hill I would be moving slowly at those points and willing the driver behind to pass me. Most drivers will seize those opportunities but there are always some who can't seem to plan ahead.


Exactly what I meant by letting cars pass, waving an arm also encourages them. Of course if there is a line of cars they will follow each other nose to tail and you may still have to stop but to restart on a steep hill I find it best to wait until there is no traffic then go across it at an angle for a short distance. Works even on very narrow roads - and I live in a single track road.
reohn2
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by reohn2 »

661-Pete wrote:........... What exactly is a 'good' cyclist? It can mean many things...


For some motorists it's those that don't impede 'their' progress by a split second,so they can drive at the speed 'they' wish and more often than not to the next traffic jam!

Pete Owens points out a couple of things in the OP that I'd not picked up on TBH.
If I'm driving for pleasure I really don't need to in a hurry,and the OP is an ex cyclist you'd have thought he'd have a bit of sympathy with the effort the two cyclists who were grovelling up such a climb were putting in.
Sadly once behind the wheel of his car it seems the OP thought and acted like many other UK motorists with regards to cyclists,namely 'get out of my way I'm more important than you!'
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Edwards
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Edwards »

Having met some cyclists who enjoyed deliberately holding up the traffic (I pulled into a layby and let the police car past).
I would have pulled over and let the truck deal with them.
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Mark1978
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Mark1978 »

Edwards wrote:Having met some cyclists who enjoyed deliberately holding up the traffic (I pulled into a layby and let the police car past).


Whilst I don't condone it, being that I drive many more miles than I ride, it's easy to realise how they would get into that sort of mindset, that cars are the enemy as much of the time in cycling they are!
Bicycler
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Bicycler »

Whilst I don't doubt the existence of occasional megalomaniac cyclists, I suspect that most of the time it just appears that way when people make different decisions about the best way to ride. Most drivers feel we are being deliberately obstructive when we don't ride in the gutter. I think this situation was a legitimate judgement call. Some would think it best to carry on, others would pull in asap and I can see reasons for doing either.
Jon Lucas
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Jon Lucas »

The Bealach na Ba has a fairly relentless gradient that you need to be in your lowest gear to climb up almost all the way, but as you climb you realise that you might be able to make it all the way without getting off as long as you don't have to stop. If you do have to stop, the gradient will make it pretty difficult to get going again. If you have heavy luggage it will be almost impossible. So there is a great incentive for any cyclist climbing up it, at 3mph or so, not to stop, although it is fairly easy for a single cyclist to allow for one or two cars to pass in the passing places.

If you are in a large group, any passing car is bound to have to stay behind some of the cyclists past several passing bays, even assuming some of the cyclists stop in them each time. If you are cycling in a group, it is not pleasant to have a car stuck in it between you and the rest of the group.

When I cycled up Bealach na Ba, in 2005, I did it on my own and was probably fortunate :D that there was thick fog for much of the way. This meant that very few cars were attempting to drive it, and that those that did were not able to drive any faster than I was cycling anyway. It was pretty hair-raising though, as some sharp bends with long drops beside them did seem to rear up out of nowhere.

When I reached Applecross I chatted to a man who had driven over at about the same time, and he did use the term 'most nightmarish drive' to describe it, although he wasn't talking about cyclists. In the fog I imagine that it would have been utterly terrifying to drive, as your all round visibility as a driver is far poorer than as a cyclist, and he would have had no warning whatsoever of the sheer drops that kept appearing. He looked like he was still shaking when I saw him, and that was a few hours after he had come over it.

Cycling single track roads deserves a thread of its own (not hidden on this thread), so I will start one.
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Cyril Haearn »

any chance of a statement from the CTC magazine editor, who did not reply to the letter?

Or is "no reply" in fact a very clear reply?

..

Can any expert comment on "coasting down to Applecross" only using the footbrake? Can one change the laws of physics?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Cyril Haearn wrote:any chance of a statement from the CTC magazine editor, who did not reply to the letter?

Or is "no reply" in fact a very clear reply?

..

Can any expert comment on "coasting down to Applecross" only using the footbrake? Can one change the laws of physics?


I've never written to a motoring magazine to complain about driver behaviour - but I imagine that no reply is quite normal is such circmstances. Wait, become a member of the CTC and look in the next few editions of cycle...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
LollyKat
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by LollyKat »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Can any expert comment on "coasting down to Applecross" only using the footbrake? Can one change the laws of physics?

I'm not an expert, but it sounds rather terrifying - I'd be afraid of brake fade. OTOH modern cars seem not to do engine braking as well as they used to. A few years ago a driving instructor told me they now discouraged engine braking. I was surprised but then got a bit of a shock when driving my son's Focus recently - I had to use the brakes much more on steep downhills than on our 20+-year-old Volvo. (The Volvo will also happily crawl up a reasonable incline with the foot off the accelerator - obviously designed for following cyclists up steep hills :wink: )

Edit: just reread the OP and he got nearly to Sheildaig before the clutch gave out. So did he coast down or could he use the engine to brake even with a worn clutch?

Actually I'm not sure I believe this story - part of me thinks it is just a wind-up.
Mark1978
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Mark1978 »

Engine braking is useful! I don't know if discouraging engine braking is part of the dumbing down process? Keep it simple, right pedal, go, middle pedal, slow?
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by Vorpal »

LollyKat wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Can any expert comment on "coasting down to Applecross" only using the footbrake? Can one change the laws of physics?

I'm not an expert, but it sounds rather terrifying - I'd be afraid of brake fade. OTOH modern cars seem not to do engine braking as well as they used to. A few years ago a driving instructor told me they now discouraged engine braking. I was surprised but then got a bit of a shock when driving my son's Focus recently - I had to use the brakes much more on steep downhills than on our 20+-year-old Volvo. (The Volvo will also happily crawl up a reasonable incline with the foot off the accelerator - obviously designed for following cyclists up steep hills :wink: )

One of the reasons given in the Highway Code for not coasting is to ba able to take advantage of engine braking. I got into an ongoing debate with a driving instructor about that.
122

Coasting. This term describes a vehicle travelling in neutral or with the clutch pressed down. It can reduce driver control because
-engine braking is eliminated
-vehicle speed downhill will increase quickly
-increased use of the footbrake can reduce its effectiveness
-steering response will be affected, particularly on bends and corners
-it may be more difficult to select the appropriate gear when needed.

Modern cars often require selecting one gear lower in order to take advantage of engine braking, especially on long descents.

Engine braking is reduced over older cars because it used to be that when one let up on the accelerator, the air flow to the intake was substantially reduced (throttled). In most modern cars, this is now controlled by a computer, and the speed with which the throttle is closed is now much slower, as manufacturers have defined the throttle closing speed to avoid misuse of engine braking that can cause skids.
Also it contributes to efficiency, exhaust back pressure, transmission life, etc.
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661-Pete
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Re: Nightmare drive

Post by 661-Pete »

What about hybrid or electric cars? Never driven one myself, but I thought that engine braking = regenerative braking was the norm here.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
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