Vote UKIP...

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
User avatar
Trigger
Posts: 1459
Joined: 6 Aug 2010, 11:54am
Location: Derby/Notts

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Trigger »

Si wrote:why have we not seen a new moderately far left party sitting between Labour and the socialist small fry no-hopers?


The Greens fit this bill like you say, I voted for them based on this.

But the one thing they lack in this modern Simon Cowell era of phone voting, personality centric, celebrity personality obsessed general public, is a Nigel Farage style goon who makes good copy and sounds good on the idiot box in the corner of the room that so many base their decisions on these days.

I bet the majority of kippers don't even know what a manifesto is, let alone that UKIP don't actually have one.
User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 11526
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by al_yrpal »

Camerons barrier to EU reform is the Lib Dems. He cant move a muscle because of the coalition agreement. Clegg was exposed by Farage in debates and the LDs have now received a very clear two fingered message from the electorate. In next years general election the LDs are going to loose seats wholesale and it will be a slugging match between Tories and Labour. Any UKIP commons seats will be very hard won. Real change is very slow in Britain, its more like evolution than revolution.
Tories will continue to rule. Public services will continue to slide, fat cats will get fatter, youngsters will continue to suffer, immigration will continue at the present rate clogging up the country and overwhelming public services and the poor will therefore continue to get relatively poorer. The only influence UKIP has is on the polictricians.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Psamathe »

Si wrote:That the Kippers did much better in the Euro elections than the council elections suggests to me that people still believe that they are not capable of running the country, and that much of their vote was either protest or based solely on leaving Europe/stemming immigration. I think that a lot of their supporters will be back with the Tories come the national elections.

I agree, reflected in the low turnouts for the EU elections (even when done at the same time as local council elections for some). I think it stems from a general feeling that the EU is just not "important". People will repeat what they are being feed by the politicians, that "we no longer have any control of our laws" and that "it forces us to allow unlimited immigration" ... (truth is not relevant when coming from the mouths of politicians).

But I suspect that people will take the general election more seriously. The risk is that the parties feel they must react to UKIP and thus feed us a diluted form of UKIP propaganda in the hope we will switch to them. So UKIP are in effect now determining (to a degree) the policies of the main two other parties (and we then get back to "no real choice").

Si wrote:I guess that you might say that the Greens fill some aspects of this, but they haven't taken off like the Kippers...probably because they are honest enough to admit that there are no easy fixes, unlike the Kippers who can happily blame everything on Johnny Foreigner.

I voted Green. I am impressed with Caroline Lucas, but the Green Party leader (can't remember her name) comes across badly; she can do everything right (say the right words, speak clearly, explain sensible policies, etc.) but just comes across badly - and is a limiting factor for the Green Party. But interestingly, the "elephant in the room" even for the Greens is "population" (not immigration but population). Even the Green Party fails to even consider this (at least when I was involved with them it was never discussed).

Ian
Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Bicycler »

Restricting immigration seems like a comparatively easy way of controlling population increase. There are other ways but I think they would require a real shift to extreme politics...
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20297
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by mjr »

Bicycler wrote:Restricting immigration seems like a comparatively easy way of controlling population increase. There are other ways but I think they would require a real shift to extreme politics...

No, restricting immigration does little to control population increase in global terms. It just builds pressure along our borders and means more expense and more annoyance any time you try to cross them. Aren't our borders obnoxious enough already? Scan your travel documents, put all your precious goods in this tray while we put it in a conveyor and leave it lying around for anyone to pick up, take off your belt, take off your shoes, stand there with your arms up while we take a picture of you naked, give me your passport, take off your glasses, look into that camera (what do you mean you can't see where the camera is without your glasses?), who are you, where are you going and why? :twisted:

Also, there's a range of opinions on whether peak population is coming sooner/lower than the UN headline prediction. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24303537 but one of the things that reduces population growth is better education and access to healthcare (including understanding of and access to contraception), which is often funded by UK overseas development money... oh and which party wants to cut that? UKIP, yet again saying one thing but having policy that does another. :shock: It's not just transport where UKIP makes no sense at the minute :roll:
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by TonyR »

beardy wrote:There is an increasingly large portion of the population who are being pushed to the limit, they feel they have little to lose and possibly a lot to gain by any change in the system.


But why do they always go for the party that appeals to their worst xenophobic instincts?
User avatar
jezer
Posts: 1581
Joined: 29 Sep 2007, 5:16pm
Location: North Wiltshire

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by jezer »

It's a mystery to me, but I'm almost tempted to say that voters should be subjected to an IQ test before they are allowed to cast their vote. Of course that's not realistic, but how can you otherwise explain the apparent success of the racist and bigoted UKIP?
Power to the pedals
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Psamathe »

Interesting seeing each of the Westminster party leaders, all saying "they get the message" and all going on to say "which is why we must carry on with our policies to reform this, that and the other". They are all interpreting the "protest" as meaning they must do more of the same. Seems an expensive education does not also provide much common sense.

And maybe that is the problem with voting for e.g. UKIP as a "protest". What are such voters protesting about and who are they protesting against and are they all protesting about the same thing and against the same mainstream party ? Because the way it has worked-out, the party leaders are just taking the protest to mean they think people want them to push-on with their existing work.

And the poor old Lib Dems. They recognise they have been obliterated but don't think it is their policies, don't think it is their leader, don't think they are doing anything wrong, don't think they need to change anything, just they need to explain things a bit more!

Ian
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Psamathe »

Trigger wrote:Cable wouldn't get anywhere near the job, he's not on-message enough and is somewhat of a loose cannon, that's why they quickly squirrelled him away into some non-job.

On C4 news this evening, Lib Dems are talking about "anointing" Cable to be party leader a.s.a.p.

Ian
garybaldy
Posts: 192
Joined: 21 May 2008, 6:10am

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by garybaldy »

Some Tory MP on the radio earlier said "this is a wake up call, we are really going to listen to the electorate for the next year". Says it all really. So, after that one year and one of the useless main stream parties are back in, we can all go to hell! Is it any wonder that voters (the ones that can be bothered to vote anyway) are voting for anyone but them.
User avatar
Trigger
Posts: 1459
Joined: 6 Aug 2010, 11:54am
Location: Derby/Notts

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Trigger »

Psamathe wrote:
Trigger wrote:Cable wouldn't get anywhere near the job, he's not on-message enough and is somewhat of a loose cannon, that's why they quickly squirrelled him away into some non-job.

On C4 news this evening, Lib Dems are talking about "anointing" Cable to be party leader a.s.a.p.

Ian


I'm surprised, unless they plan a really acrimonious split from the Tories, in which case he'd be first choice :lol:
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20297
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by mjr »

garybaldy is extrapolating a bit far. They'll listen for a year and see if that wins them any votes. If it does, they'll probably continue. If not, it'll be back to conviction politics.

I'd quite like to see more political parties listening to voters. I'd be more likely to vote for ones that did. Labour with epetitions and more recently their new supporter-type semi-membership and especially Greens have been getting better at this recently. The Conservatives seemed to have a bit of a go with their Red Tape Challenge and so on and then get cold feet and do what they liked anyway. I've not really seen anything from Lib Dems and UKIP in this but maybe that's just me.

Psamathe - isn't Cable one of the more right-wing possibilities, one of the Orange Book authors? The high LD vote in 2010 was thought to be due in part to former Labour voters wanting to teach Labour a lesson and maybe into coalition. I don't understand why LD would lurch even further right. They've almost no chance of moving right far enough to gain many UKIP voters and it would be almost certain to push their 2010 surge back towards Labour.

Really what all parties except UKIP need to do is to neutralise the BBC-led UKIP marketing campaign and promote their own distinctive positive narratives. Most of them are looking a bit punch-drunk at the moment.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by beardy »

TonyR wrote:
beardy wrote:There is an increasingly large portion of the population who are being pushed to the limit, they feel they have little to lose and possibly a lot to gain by any change in the system.


But why do they always go for the party that appeals to their worst xenophobic instincts?


They didnt though did they?

BNP, Britain First and a few other "proper" racist parties didnt do well at all.

UKIP are more appealing to your "Churchill was our greatest Leader" and "Defeating the Nazi's was our finest hour" type Patriots.
User avatar
horizon
Posts: 11275
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by horizon »

I think we're far too hung up on the parties. UKIP is that big chunk of the electorate that Mrs Thatcher caught in the 1980s. Every prime minister since Atlee has relied on their votes: they are the swing voters in the middle who count the cash in their pockets and, if not happy, switch to the other side. It's the voters with the limited horizons, zero vision and suffocating self interest (apologies to those protest voters on here who voted for UKIP for other reasons).

Suddenly they've emerged from the woodwork as an actual party because (as others have said above), Cameron is stuck in coalition with the Lib Dems. He cannot pick up UKIP votes by moving further to the right. UKIP does have the momentum to pick up protest votes of all sorts but that will change when the parties re-align themselves for the election.

I'm tickled pink that the Greens got three seats. They'll never be a big party but they can have influence. When the Lib Dems get back on their feet, maybe they'll have an alliance.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56349
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Mick F »

horizon wrote: ..............the Greens got three seats .............. When the Lib Dems get back on their feet, maybe they'll have an alliance.
It will be many years before the LDs get back on their feet. Greens and LDs could indeed make an aliance, they may be good bed-fellows.

Even before this EU election, the LDs had lost much kudos and support because they sold out. The Cons lost a bit too, but not as much. Clegg will be lucky to even keep his seat after the next general election, let alone still be leader. It he could turn the clock back, would he have taken the LDs into a coalition?

Personally, I'd have preferred Lab or Con to have formed a minority government, then called another general election maybe a year later. By that time, the electorate may have been more decisive.
Mick F. Cornwall
Post Reply