Vote UKIP...

[geocycle]

On balance I'm in favour of the EU. It has become bloated and I hope the pan-europe sceptic message will cause a pause in the drive to ever more integration. but we stand to lose a lot eg. environment policy is much more effective if negotiated across Europe (global would be better but is impractical), otherwise it becomes a growth tax on individual nations. Secondly, although UK is a net contributor, some individual regions are probably better off as a result of regional development investment eg Wales, parts of Scotland and much of England other than the SE owe a lot of infrastructure and SME investment to Europe. We also get a good chunk of EU R and D budgets. All these would have to be backfilled if we came out. Can we trust Westminster to do that?

[Psamathe]

(From NewsBiscuit http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2014/05/27/just-when-you-thought-it-was-safe-to-go-back-in-the-polling-booth/)

Ian

[TonyR]

An interesting analysis from Robert Peston.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27585765

[Tonyf33]

The EU system is corrupt, unwieldy and frankly in the computerised age unecessary for commerce, one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU and was never part of the original reasons [...]

As for "one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU" how much have you tried that? My firm trades with EU and non-EU clients and I talk with others who do and rest assured that it's massively simpler to trade within the EU without messing about with the full range of Incoterms, export and import licensing and all the other bureaucracy (and opportunities for corruption) that you have to deal with when trading outside the EU, save a few exceptions where there are similar trade treaties. That's a big part of why 85% of small/medium enterprises and 90% of small quoted companies want to stay in the EU http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidprosse ... al-policy/

it's only easier in some reagrds to trading with EU businesses because the make up of trading over the last 30 odd years have gone down the route of making it thus (& making it harder for non EU which wasn't there before). However I'd be very doubtful over the figures you state for smaller businesses given many small/mid sized companies go to the wall because of the increasing restrictions in place because of EUrules making it harder to exist/make any profit at all.
Increasingly larger businesses take the mick with taxation loopholes and smaller businesses get stung royally & punished harshly by comparison & rarely if ever get any EU funding/subsidies..seriously..smaller businesses would be able trade far easier all round (within the UK itself too) if it were not for the complexity of what has happened over the last few decades due to our continued membership.

[Tonyf33]

As for "one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU" how much have you tried that? My firm trades with EU and non-EU clients and I talk with others who do and rest assured that it's massively simpler to trade within the EU without messing about with the full range of Incoterms, export and import licensing and all the other bureaucracy (and opportunities for corruption) that you have to deal with when trading outside the EU, save a few exceptions where there are similar trade treaties. That's a big part of why 85% of small/medium enterprises and 90% of small quoted companies want to stay in the EU http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidprosse ... al-policy/

You don't even need to be a company to appreciate that. How many people here buy bike stuff on-line from places like Roseversand and bike-discount.de? And how many buy from Nashbar, Jenson and Performance with all the problems of duty, VAT, currency etc to worry about? Or think about the ability to jump on a plane or train on the spur of the moment to Europe for the day, weekend or longer without having to worry about visas and immigration. We forget how much of what we take for granted today is enabled by the free movement of goods and people in Europe

Currency problems, like what for example? Purchasing from Taiwan or China or anywhere else is just as easy within Europe, actually most Euro sellers add on ridiculous postage for even smaller items, unlike their Asian counterparts. As for customs, yes that's the only benefit as a personal buyer with regard to VAT but I've had items take longer to arrive within the EU conutries than stuff from halfway round the world, had boxes opened and delayed. Frankly given the vast availability of items unless you are wanting something extremmely rare & expensive then that doesn't effect most cyclists 999/1000 in any case.
Travel restrictions, you stll need a passport to cross borders and as for Visas, most countries you can get an electronic visitor visa that is free and takes minutes to fill in online..again, where is the benefit exactly that costs this country tens of billions of pounds just in the payment into the EU pot alone never mind all the other negative effects.

[OnYourRight]

An interesting analysis from Robert Peston.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27585765

That is interesting, thanks. I also thought his piece on UKIP’s economic significance, from a few days ago, was interesting.

Tonyf33: don’t forget trade goes both ways. Wiggle and Chain Reaction (to name two large online bike shops) sell huge amounts of stuff into the EU (their whole sites including product pages are translated at great expense into French for the French market alone!). I feel you are optimistic to think British buyers would in great numbers put up with the faff and expense of buying from outside the EU. Or that French buyers (for instance) would put up with the same, especially when a bunch of faff-free EU shops (e.g. Rose) would be just a mouse click away.

More likely, prices in the UK would go up from lack of EU-wide competition and British buyers would have no real option but to cough up the extra. And that would happen across a huge range of products and services, from mobile phone roaming charges to new cars.

[Bicycler]

To be fair UKIP (and most people who are "Eurosceptic") have never had anything against a European common market. That was the bit that the public voted for and thought they were getting in the first place! It is the one thing that is almost universally popular and which UKIP have always pledged to keep.

[TonyR]

To be fair UKIP (and most people who are "Eurosceptic") have never had anything against a European common market. That was the bit that the public voted for and thought they were getting in the first place! It is the one thing that is almost universally popular and which UKIP have always pledged to keep.

But the political integration is a natural consequence of having a common market. To avoid all the problems that there were with constantly changing exchange rates and a different currency for each country you were trading with and all the knock on commercial effects (Italy's industry for example used to go through cycles of feast and famine according to the exchange rate, and therefore price competitiveness, with their main competitor and market, the German industry).

As soon as you go for currency union though, as with the current Independent Scotland and the £ debate, you need a political and fiscal union and free movement of people otherwise differing economic performances have to be dealt with by austerity or capital transfers rather than devaluation and people from poor performing states cannot move to mitigate it (if you think about the US, people have largely deserted states like Arkansas and places like New Orleans to states like California and the NE States to overcome the regional economic disparities. Here people are moving to London ( as noted in Robert Peston's article above) just as they moved to the cities from the countryside in the Industrial Revolution.

So you really cannot have a common market without the rest especially given the large number of countries in Europe.

[AlaninWales]

Fiscal union is not a pre-requisite of having a common market. Markets worked well enough for centuries before the Euro and continue to work around the world with independant currencies: All you have to remember is that the currencies themselves are in the open market.

It's fiscal union that requires intensive political integration because you cannot have a (successful) fiscal union without unified (i.e. centrally controlled) fiscal policies - which then causes the unrest we see in southern Europe when it is imposed from the (fiscal) center.

[pete75]

Nick Griffin, for once, showed some insight
'Speaking to Sky's Adam Boulton, Griffin said: "We are indeed what you might call racist." Asked where the party's voters had gone, he said: "They’ve voted for Ukip’s racist policies instead."'

Certainly this is confirmed by a recent Yougov survey which found 51% of UKIP supporters either strongly agreed or agreed with the statement "The Government should encourage immigrants and their families to leave Britain (including family members who were born in Britain) "
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/d ... otrack.pdf

[tyreon]

I am interested and educated by all the comments above.

I do not consider myself racist,but worry about the increasing population coming about over here...particularly in the last few years.

Cycling about I do see the market towns,the smaller city centres,more crowded than ever ++. I guess I must be racist because of all the foreign faces and toungues I see and hear... I also see one hell of a lot of inbuilding going on and around...and people calling for more houses to be built++(John Prescott: There's plenty o green (belt)land...and we're gonna build right on o'er it')

I guess I was happy to have 55,000,000 people in the country,but now it's what?...70,000,000,going onto 75,000,000. That means even more houses and roads,and supermarkets and street lighting and cars and... I just see the place filling up and what good country we have...disappearing. I guess some of us have still good access to the country cycling via a Tacx machine and the computer placed in front of our bikes with computerized graphics. I guess all the fresh air we need can be accessed via our lounge doors being made open. I suppose I just prefer trees and open fields,and birds and greenery...to lottsa 'concrete' and infrastructure. I know some young man who has never had a proper job will put me right in my non-thinking. I think Nicky Clegg,'call-me-Dave' Cameron,Neil Kinnock,all have offspring...and will tell me how selfish/nasty/bigoted I am. Except... I'm just a bottom-feeder, and haven't had the private education and good networking system they've had to feed at the top table. And,er,I just like...well,fields,and trees and stuff. Cows...that sort o thing

[kwackers]

I'd have more sympathy for the whole immigration thing if I saw any evidence of population control amongst the existing natives.

[mjr]

Cycling about I do see the market towns,the smaller city centres,more crowded than ever ++.

Really? The market towns I visit are struggling because there are barely enough people in them to keep the markets and the shops going. Let's tackle the real threat here - driving to out-of-town big-box stores and the political policies that encourage it! Policies like "UKIP are not in favour of persecuting the motorist" "UKIP opposes ‘green taxes’" "raising the motorway speed limit to 80mph to suit modern reality" and "cyclists to display a cheap ‘Cycledisc’ to deter theft and give 3rd party insurance for car damage". Thank heavens UKIP have abandoned all those policies from their ill-fated 2010 election campaign!

I guess I must be racist because of all the foreign faces and toungues I see and hear...

No, that's xenophobia, a fear of foreigners. Many of them will be the same race as you, but able to speak more languages than the typical thick Brit.

I guess I was happy to have 55,000,000 people in the country,but now it's what?...70,000,000,going onto 75,000,000.

63,182,000 at last count http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_292378.pdf but please don't let the small matter of facts get in the way - facts usually don't sit well with xenophobia.

Except... I'm just a bottom-feeder, and haven't had the private education and good networking system they've had to feed at the top table. And,er,I just like...well,fields,and trees and stuff. Cows...that sort o thing

Yeah, me too, Dad and Grandad were builders, ancestors before that were mostly agricultural labourers and I worked in factories, shops and did piecework when I was younger... except I've gotten on with my life, so don't you go trying to blame our backgrounds for xenophobia or racism!

If you really want to preserve fields and trees and stuff, surely that means you should join the Green Party? What's all the bashing of foreigners moving into towns got to do with having access to the countryside?

[Ben@Forest]

If you really want to preserve fields and trees and stuff, surely that means you should join the Green Party? What's all the bashing of foreigners moving into towns got to do with having access to the countryside?

Though it should have nothing to do with bashing foreigners there is an issue with not only preserving the countryside but also our ability to grow a reasonable proportion of our own crops, meat and dairy produce, not forgetting (as most people do) timber. We import more than 40% of our food requirement and around 80% of our timber requirement. This hardly sits well with the constant bleats about sustainable lifestyles.

Depending upon whose theory you want to believe, how intensively you want to farm and how much habitat you want to leave for all the other species we share this country with it is generally been said the real 'carrying capacity' of the UK is between 15 and 30 million people. Such theories always lead to arguments about Malthusian population control but I think it is undeniable that with the increase in population we have to rely on imports more and British wildlife suffers more. (Though of course it has to be said that much of industrial pollution of the 19thC onwards and indiscriminate pesticide use of the 1950s is now much better understood and controlled).

[tyreon]

Mjr: Greetings.

"Typical,thick Brit". Language,language. Now what if I had used the P-word?

Facts: I do get 'em wrong. Keep listening to our elected guv'ners. Have I got it right?...we won the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan?

Truble is,you never know who to believe in these days,do you? Well,I don't. I know when I was a young 'un,I used to question me political elders by protestation on the streets of the UK...to have my head put through windows by my own 'class mates'.

Think I'm a cross elector these days: a bit of G Galloway,Chris Packham and Nigel Farrage. An odd-ball. xxx