Vote UKIP...

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Trigger
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Trigger »

I don't know why someone like Miliband doesn't just take the chance and risk all on forthright policies based on traditional Labour values, what is the worst that can happen that wouldn't happen should he lose based on his current wishy-washy, centrist garbage that he currently parrots?

I think the situation is such that the voters are crying out for some conviction politics, we're all just sick and tired of tit-for-tat point scoring based on nothing really important at all, fight the real fight and leave the playground stuff to the kids.
beardy
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by beardy »

If he tried, the population would never hear about it.

The "popular" press would launch a lethal attack on him and the BBC etc would be too interested in reporting the attack and letting it dominate the agenda.
The policies would never make it through to the masses uncorrupted by the media.
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Trigger
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Trigger »

Seems to have worked OK for UKIP, the more the media and other parties have derided them the more determined it seems their voters were to vote for them.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by al_yrpal »

Trigger wrote:I don't know why someone like Miliband doesn't just take the chance and risk all on forthright policies based on traditional Labour values, what is the worst that can happen that wouldn't happen should he lose based on his current wishy-washy, centrist garbage that he currently parrots?.


Thats a cracking idea, but I would like to see the Tories go for it too. It would be like a cage fight. Place your bets! :mrgreen:

Al
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beardy
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by beardy »

I thought they already had, just using the name UKIP.

Adding the two shares of the votes together they got 52% of the vote.

So Alyrpal's betting for the favourites if it happens.
Tonyf33
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Tonyf33 »

Problem with reforming the EU is that like a glacier it is an imoveable object in real terms, 'reforming' only comes about if member states want to reform, there is an awful lot of reasons for some member states to vote no to the sort of reforms that the UK might want.

The other problem I see with trying to reform is that the legal aspect and cost thereof to put forward and employ even simple reforms would run to tens of millions, for the reform that we as a country would want it would cost billions and continue to be complex and costly. This in its own right shows how the whole system is impossible to manage & very likely counter productive (making small reforms for each individual country).
We then would have more needless bureacratic jobs (that pay incredibly excessive salaries & kickbacks) and legal types getting wealthier.

The EU system is corrupt, unwieldy and frankly in the computerised age unecessary for commerce, one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU and was never part of the original reasons as to why the EU was founded..that being "to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples"

We had that to a fairly decent level already in the UK, sure, if you want agreements not to go and invade each, fine to make sure we have rules to ensure people's aren't subjected to wrong doing, fine that you help support countries to enable them to have a democratic system tec but the EU as it is today does not represent what was actually proposed nor is needed.
OnYourRight
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by OnYourRight »

There is some quite good analysis here, at the Blighty blog on The Economist website.
beardy
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by beardy »

UKIP got 28% of the vote and people are talking as if it means the population want to leave Europe.
Even UKIP say they will put it to a referendum before leaving.

On the other hand the clear majority voted for parties who intend to remain within Europe (as no major parties differ on that).

The press are rather misrepresenting the fact that a minority voted to be given a chance for a vote (often promised but never delivered) on the subject as meaning that as a nation we are against European Union.
Bicycler
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Bicycler »

beardy wrote:The press are rather misrepresenting the fact that a minority voted to be given a chance for a vote (often promised but never delivered) on the subject as meaning that as a nation we are against European Union.

Yep. Indeed the (inevitable) vote to stay in the EU could actually offer it a democratic legitimacy it doesn't currently have. The British public voted to join a free trade union ("common market") not the wide ranging political, economic and legal entity it has become. These are vital issues of national sovereignty and it is only right in a democracy that the public get to vote on that, even though it would be very unlikely that they would vote to leave the EU.
Psamathe
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Psamathe »

beardy wrote:On the other hand the clear majority voted for parties who intend to remain within Europe (as no major parties differ on that).

Might depend on how people are taking Cameron's promise for a referendum. Many might be taking that as a promise for a referendum and so ignoring the intent of the party (though with the Conservatives there is a significant group who do want to leave and a significant group who don't (though the "stay" group are now bleating on about reforms they will never achieve).

Ian
TonyR
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by TonyR »

Trigger wrote:I don't know why someone like Miliband doesn't just take the chance and risk all on forthright policies based on traditional Labour values, what is the worst that can happen that wouldn't happen should he lose based on his current wishy-washy, centrist garbage that he currently parrots?


Last time the Labour Party tried that their manifesto was called the longest suicide note in history (by one of their own). The only way they became electable was moving onto the centre ground.

labourmanifesto1983.jpg
TonyR
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by TonyR »

Psamathe wrote:I don't think the LD problem was going into a coalition and gaining some power (i.e. no longer "outsiders"). I think it was what they did when they got there. e.g. the student fees was an extreme form of breaking a written promise and almost immediately on gaining office. One day they were pledging to vote against student fees, the next voting for a massive increase. People quickly lose credibility when something is so blatant.

And since then they have become little more than cheer leaders for Conservative policies. And they have pretty well failed at getting their own really important things through (e.g. Westminster reforms). the only thing they can really "claim" is the £10k tax threshold yet those in real need dream of a £10k income (who are seeing their support dramatically cut). I suspect that they would have been better going into coalition with Labour, but Clegg seems to be a closet Tory so I don't think he would every have allowed it.


Another "be careful what you wish for" moment. Everyone talks about wanting more coalition politics but is unable to stomach the consequences. I think Nick Clegg's problem is many in his party seemed to think that being the minority partner in a coalition Government meant they would see all their policies implemented and nobody else's. That was never going to happen. So what we have now is both Tories and LibDems complaining about their respective parties not delivering on their manifestos which is a problem of the compromises coalitions require - you don't get the manifesto you voted for but some different hybrid negotiated after the effect.

What I have no doubt about though is whatever the make-up of the coalition - LibLab, LidCon or ConLab - it would have been far far better than the uncertainty of minority government with another election in a years time. The economy would have tanked on the uncertainty and paralysis while the Government would have been able to do nothing about it because they couldn't get any policies through as a minority. And nobody would have been any the wiser from that exercise for the next election but a lot poorer. BICBW
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mjr
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by mjr »

Tonyf33 wrote:The EU system is corrupt, unwieldy and frankly in the computerised age unecessary for commerce, one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU and was never part of the original reasons [...]

The EU is not the EEC, ECSC, Western European Union or its other predecessor/constituent parts. Quoting the founding reasons of something else isn't really helpful. The EU was formed by a 1993 treaty and reformed by further treaties 1997-2009. You can read the reasons in its preamble at http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... N.01001301 and includes "promote economic and social progress for their peoples, taking into account the principle of sustainable development and within the context of the accomplishment of the internal market and of reinforced cohesion and environmental protection, and to implement policies ensuring that advances in economic integration are accompanied by parallel progress in other fields... to facilitate the free movement of persons, while ensuring the safety and security of their peoples" and various other good goals that I suggest are still relevant today.

As for "one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU" how much have you tried that? My firm trades with EU and non-EU clients and I talk with others who do and rest assured that it's massively simpler to trade within the EU without messing about with the full range of Incoterms, export and import licensing and all the other bureaucracy (and opportunities for corruption) that you have to deal with when trading outside the EU, save a few exceptions where there are similar trade treaties. That's a big part of why 85% of small/medium enterprises and 90% of small quoted companies want to stay in the EU http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidprosse ... al-policy/
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Psamathe
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:As for "one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU" how much have you tried that?

Also, can our economy afford to lose even a small percentage of the existing EU trade.

When the recession hit I was surprised at how sensitive our economy was to pretty small %ages on negative growth. So to lose even a small part of the EU trade could set us back badly. And how would those losing their jobs feel about it? Plus, leaving the EU is not going to increase demand for our exports through the rest of the world.

Ian
TonyR
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Post by TonyR »

mjr wrote:As for "one can easily trade with other countries not in the EU" how much have you tried that? My firm trades with EU and non-EU clients and I talk with others who do and rest assured that it's massively simpler to trade within the EU without messing about with the full range of Incoterms, export and import licensing and all the other bureaucracy (and opportunities for corruption) that you have to deal with when trading outside the EU, save a few exceptions where there are similar trade treaties. That's a big part of why 85% of small/medium enterprises and 90% of small quoted companies want to stay in the EU http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidprosse ... al-policy/


You don't even need to be a company to appreciate that. How many people here buy bike stuff on-line from places like Roseversand and bike-discount.de? And how many buy from Nashbar, Jenson and Performance with all the problems of duty, VAT, currency etc to worry about? Or think about the ability to jump on a plane or train on the spur of the moment to Europe for the day, weekend or longer without having to worry about visas and immigration. We forget how much of what we take for granted today is enabled by the free movement of goods and people in Europe
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