Vote UKIP...

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mike Sales » Sun May 25, 2014 1:06 pm

TonyR wrote:This country is built on immigration - Romans, French, Angles, Saxons, Indians, Pakistanis, African Asians.....


The True Born Englishman
By Daniel Defoe
Thus from a mixture of all kinds began,
That het’rogeneous thing, an Englishman:
In eager rapes, and furious lust begot,
Betwixt a painted Britain and a Scot.
Whose gend’ring off-spring quickly learn’d to bow,
And yoke their heifers to the Roman plough:
From whence a mongrel half-bred race there came,
With neither name, nor nation, speech nor fame.
In whose hot veins new mixtures quickly ran,
Infus’d betwixt a Saxon and a Dane.
While their rank daughters, to their parents just,
Receiv’d all nations with promiscuous lust.
This nauseous brood directly did contain
The well-extracted blood of Englishmen.

Which medly canton’d in a heptarchy,
A rhapsody of nations to supply,
Among themselves maintain’d eternal wars,
And still the ladies lov’d the conquerors.

The western Angles all the rest subdu’d;
A bloody nation, barbarous and rude:
Who by the tenure of the sword possest
One part of Britain, and subdu’d the rest
And as great things denominate the small,
The conqu’ring part gave title to the whole.
The Scot, Pict, Britain, Roman, Dane, submit,
And with the English-Saxon all unite:
And these the mixture have so close pursu’d,
The very name and memory’s subdu’d:
No Roman now, no Britain does remain;
Wales strove to separate, but strove in vain:
The silent nations undistinguish’d fall,
And Englishman’s the common name for all.
Fate jumbled them together, God knows how;
What e’er they were they’re true-born English now.

The wonder which remains is at our pride,
To value that which all wise men deride.
For Englishmen to boast of generation,
Cancels their knowledge, and lampoons the nation.
A true-born Englishman’s a contradiction,
In speech an irony, in fact a fiction.
A banter made to be a test of fools,
Which those that use it justly ridicules.
A metaphor invented to express
A man a-kin to all the universe.

For as the Scots, as learned men ha’ said,
Throughout the world their wand’ring seed ha’ spread;
So open-handed England, ’tis believ’d,
Has all the gleanings of the world receiv’d.

Some think of England ’twas our Saviour meant,
The Gospel should to all the world be sent:
Since, when the blessed sound did hither reach,
They to all nations might be said to preach.

’Tis well that virtue gives nobility,
How shall we else the want of birth and blood supply?
Since scarce one family is left alive,
Which does not from some foreigner derive.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby irc » Sun May 25, 2014 1:18 pm

TonyR wrote:This country is built on immigration -Romans, French, Angles, Saxons, Indians, Pakistanis, African Asians.....


False analogy. Every country is built on immigration as humans emerged from Africa. It doesn't mean an overcrowded country needs uncontrolled immigration today. We should only let in immigrants with skills we need.

TonyR wrote:And as for trashing the environment, UKIP policy is to stop all subsidies for renewable energies and build fossil fuel power generators instead.


I'm in favour of that. Solar panels for example are popular only because of the feed in tarrifs to richer consumers paid by everyone else.

It seems likely that solar photovoltaics deployed in Scotland will never repay the energy used to manufacture the panels. They will therefore produce more CO2 than if solar was not deployed at all and the emissions are emitted decades in advance of the solar electricity being produced.


http://euanmearns.com/solar-scotland/
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Trigger » Sun May 25, 2014 1:26 pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:
TonyR wrote:Be careful what you vote for.
That is the exact point in a nutshell.

How can you be careful when there's no choice?


My protest vote in the last general election was to vote LibDem in the belief that it would show NewLabour(I hesitate to call it the Labour Party because it isn't)that I wasn't satisfied and that if the worst came to the worst a coalition would be between the two.
Look what we got :?
At least we now know just how much of their soul the LibDems were willing to sell for power.

As for UKIP I couldn't stoop so low even in protest to vote for something that is completely opposed to everything I believe in.
TBH IMO the UK has never been in a worse state than at present in my lifetime,with little prospect of improvement,it is utterly depressing.
Be very careful who you vote for indeed,a monster such as UKIP is capable of even worse destruction than the incompetent bunch of self seeking,self nest feathering creeps currently in the driving seat.
Nothing but a complete rethink that includes a form PR of this so called democracy will serve the people,FPTP doesn't and has been now proved to be the case time and again.
Just my 2d's worth.


Spot on.

I did the same RE: Lib Dems last time, I discussed with my Dad beforehand my reasoning (former union rep and Labour councillor) and I looked a right pratt after the 'rose-garden-love-in' - I couldn't have been more gutted when he sidled up to the Tories, I'll never forget that and as far as I'm concerned the Lib Dems are finished.

As you say Labour can't be called Labour any more, there should be some sort of trade descriptions act applied to them or advertisement standards agency called in. Another reason I wouldn't vote Labour is that I wouldn't trust them to do a deal with the Lib Dems just like the Tories, Clegg would love another 5 years riding around in a Jag playing leader. Which doesn't leave much choice, I will probably vote Green but under the full realisation that they won't get far in this country.

PR is our only hope and again Clegg stitched us up with that, the bloke is a total waste of oxygen and I can't wait to see the back of him.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Psamathe » Sun May 25, 2014 1:59 pm

Trigger wrote:... our only hope and again Clegg stitched us up with that, the bloke is a total waste of oxygen and I can't wait to see the back of him.

I see there are already calls for him to go. But if he went now, who would take-over? Answer: Vince "The Great Giveaway" Cable. And if Cable got any sort of power can you imagine the further "donations" to our hedge funds and venture capitalists (taxpayers assets at knock down prices).

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Trigger » Sun May 25, 2014 2:12 pm

Cable wouldn't get anywhere near the job, he's not on-message enough and is somewhat of a loose cannon, that's why they quickly squirrelled him away into some non-job.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Psamathe » Sun May 25, 2014 2:34 pm

Trigger wrote:Cable wouldn't get anywhere near the job, he's not on-message enough and is somewhat of a loose cannon, that's why they quickly squirrelled him away into some non-job.

The difficulty they will have is to find somebody they want who is also in a "safe seat" because most Lib Dem "seats" don't look very safe these days. and they would look a bit stupid ('oops, too late) to chose a new leader now to find their choice does not get elected in 2015.

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mick F » Sun May 25, 2014 3:07 pm

Again, I say, we have no choice. They are all as bad as each other.

I voted UKIP in the EU elections. I don't want them in power, and I wouldn't have voted for them to the council ...... but that wasn't available here, just EU. The more UKIP members we have in the EU, the more chance we have to get out of it or at least curb it's influence.

I don't want us in the EU, but want a return to what we once had - the Common Market.

I couldn't give a toss about UKIP's policies .............. and I still say they haven't got any policies ........... they haven't got a chance in being elected into government, so it makes no difference anyway, and they know it.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby kwackers » Sun May 25, 2014 3:26 pm

Mick F wrote:I couldn't give a toss about UKIP's policies .............. and I still say they haven't got any policies ........... they haven't got a chance in being elected into government, so it makes no difference anyway, and they know it.

Except that's complete nonsense.

You vote for them, the other parties see the inroads and start to think "how can we get those voters back". As I type up and down the country there are politicians working on this.
Whether you want them in or not your vote has given them credence and the result is we can expect all the parties to move more to the right as a consequence.

As for the EU, it's a long way from being perfect but it's a lot better than not being in it at all. Once we're out (and I reckon there's a good chance we will be) then we'll revert to what we really are - a tiny country in the backwaters somewhere that nobody really gives a monkeys about and whose folk sit around all day talking about the good old days...
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Psamathe » Sun May 25, 2014 4:12 pm

kwackers wrote:As for the EU, it's a long way from being perfect but it's a lot better than not being in it at all. Once we're out (and I reckon there's a good chance we will be) then we'll revert to what we really are - a tiny country in the backwaters somewhere that nobody really gives a monkeys about and whose folk sit around all day talking about the good old days...

I agree (though recognise that not everybody does).

People go on about how much of our legislation comes from Brussels, but were we not in the EU, chances are most of the same rules would have to be drawn-up for ourselves. In many ways the EU acts as a moderating influence on our own politicians; limiting some of their dafter ideas. There has recently been a lot of criticism of the EU as politicians have jumped on the bandwagon speaking out about some of the dafter EU regulations. But just look at how often the boys in Westminster get it wrong (and how much money they waste) all without any help from the EU. And I think they are all focussing on the bad aspects and not countering it with the good effects we benefit from; all just driven by the bandwagon which started with people using UKIP as a protest against Westminster (maybe more of a protest which then evolved into a desire to leave the EU).

Of course the EU is far from perfect (but I suspect Westminster is even further from perfect). But then things rarely are perfect and the thing to do is to work to improve 'cos EU is certainly not a disaster.

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mick F » Sun May 25, 2014 4:26 pm

kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:I couldn't give a toss about UKIP's policies .............. and I still say they haven't got any policies ........... they haven't got a chance in being elected into government, so it makes no difference anyway, and they know it.

Except that's complete nonsense.

You vote for them, the other parties see the inroads and start to think "how can we get those voters back". As I type up and down the country there are politicians working on this.
Whether you want them in or not your vote has given them credence and the result is we can expect all the parties to move more to the right as a consequence.
Yep.

'Twas ever thus.
In the 1950s there were loadsa Conservative MPs in Scotland. In fact the majority of constituencies in Scotland were Cons.
Where did those votes go?

BTW, do we remember this thread and the political compass questionnaire?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=47370
Mick F wrote:I have a lot in common with Ghandi. :D
I'm spot on with him.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby TonyR » Sun May 25, 2014 5:07 pm

Mick F wrote:I voted UKIP in the EU elections. I don't want them in power, and I wouldn't have voted for them to the council ...... but that wasn't available here, just EU. The more UKIP members we have in the EU, the more chance we have to get out of it or at least curb it's influence.


Have you seen their attendance and voting record in the EU? To have a chance of changing anything they'd first have to turn up and then vote against some things instead of just taking the fat cheques and doing nothing.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby al_yrpal » Sun May 25, 2014 5:09 pm

No chance of Britain coming out of Europe, but many want to see its excesses curbed. Others are fed up with creaking public services, lack of jobs in many areas and the massive pressure on housing. A lot of these problems could be addressed by halting the increase in population resulting from 2 or 3 million net imigrants in the last few years. Our health service needs staff and we need plenty of restaurant staff and seasonal workers but at the moment its an uncontrolled free for all. What we are seeing is a preamble to reform. Its a pity that UKIP has attracted so many nutters, I think its the same sort I saw at early SDP meetings long ago. It happens to any new party. I hope Nigel and Co keep up the barrage of criticism because the three main parties seem largely disconnected to public opinion. Whatever happened to the concept of a Common Market I and millions of others voted for back in the 70s? The EU bears no resemblance.

Al
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Psamathe » Sun May 25, 2014 5:10 pm

In the words on the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band "No Matter Who You Vote For the Government Always Gets In" http://www.neilinnes.org/audio/Bonzo_Dog_Band-No_Matter_Who.mp3 you might need to add an http:// to the start of the linked address depending on browser as the forum software seems to be omitting and just using http://www... Or http://www.neilinnes.org/nnn.html#nomatter and the play/download is just below the lyrics. The link is to play the song published and on the web site of Neil Innes (the author/artist/etc.) so all completely legal.

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby reohn2 » Sun May 25, 2014 5:28 pm

kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:I couldn't give a toss about UKIP's policies .............. and I still say they haven't got any policies ........... they haven't got a chance in being elected into government, so it makes no difference anyway, and they know it.

Except that's complete nonsense.

You vote for them, the other parties see the inroads and start to think "how can we get those voters back". As I type up and down the country there are politicians working on this.
Whether you want them in or not your vote has given them credence and the result is we can expect all the parties to move more to the right as a consequence.

As for the EU, it's a long way from being perfect but it's a lot better than not being in it at all. Once we're out (and I reckon there's a good chance we will be) then we'll revert to what we really are - a tiny country in the backwaters somewhere that nobody really gives a monkeys about and whose folk sit around all day talking about the good old days...

Spot on!
It's an unusual thing to vote for the party you don't want :? .
With enough voters using that kind of logic those voters will get exactly what they didn't want or the rest of the bunch of crooks(sorry party's) lurching evermore to the right as a result.
You couldn't make it up.
The early morning dew arrives as if by magic,
The cherry blossom now scattered and windblown has left us,
Now the Swifts and Swallows dip and weave above our heads.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Bicycler » Sun May 25, 2014 7:05 pm

Far from being unusual, tactical voting is common. Plenty are willing to vote for a party with a chance of getting in rather than the party they want to vote for (eg. Labour instead of the Greens). Now of course it would only require many voters to decide to vote for the Greens and they'd get in. In practice voters know that this won't actually happen. Personally, I vote the way I want to even if it is for somebody who will lose their deposit but I can see why some would choose to vote tactically.
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