Vote UKIP...

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mick F » Sat May 24, 2014 8:12 pm

I've been away a few hours .............. back now. :D
This debate has moved on a tad since I last checked in.

I said I voted UKIP yesterday.
I'm not racist or against foreigners or immigration, I just want us out of the EU pronto. UKIP and their rise in the popularity stakes can only be a good thing IMHO.

UKIP hasn't a cat's chance of getting even a single MP in parliament, so we don't have to worry about them taking charge, but they are giving the "normal" parties a kicking that they won't forget.

What was that movie?
Eddie wotisname?
Vote for "None of the Above"?
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Edwards » Sat May 24, 2014 8:19 pm

Mick F wrote:I've been away a few hours .............. back now. :D

What was that movie?
Eddie wotisname?
Vote for "None of the Above"?


Brewster Millions where he has to get rid of money in a short period of time.

We do not stand a chance of getting None of the Above, so we need a decent protest against these rich people.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby al_yrpal » Sat May 24, 2014 8:19 pm

Anyone who has been to China lately will confirm its a truly awful place reminiscent of the worst aspects of the Industrial Revolution as described in Dickens' Hard Times. As a post industrial society we should count ourselves very fortunate. They are building one or two power stations a week, many fired by filthy brown coal. People with no work in the newly automated countryside are being unwillingly entombed in massive faceless city tower blocks. They seem to be making all the same mistakes we did. One key feature is overpopulation which they are struggling to control and which we should be controlling by limiting access to our green and pleasant land. We should be applying my wife's rules as applied to my bikes - one in one out!
I am glad that we have a society where we can express our views freely.

Al
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby kwackers » Sat May 24, 2014 8:21 pm

downfader wrote:The bad thing about the Chinese and renewables is the potential of them exploiting cheap labour, as they did with building and factories. They have the power to flood their country with them cheaply, and benefit quickly from both the generation and the export of the electricity. They have no fear of patents or copyright.

Which if it happens could be bad for developing new technologies. The original creators wouldnt see a penny or their reputation could be damaged by consumers being mislead into inferior copies.

And the point is?

Hate to say it but the Chinese are simply having their own version of the industrial revolution. We made use of exploiting cheap labour, creating dirty buildings and factories long before they came along.
On the plus side they're coming out of the other side very rapidly, took us hundreds of years... They're also embracing the whole concept of renewables wholeheartedly - I wish we would do the same because by not doing we'll soon lack the skills and knowledge to compete in what will become an important market place pretty quickly.

Their prior form of copying is rapidly becoming a thing of the past (I can remember when Japanese stuff was roundly condemned for all the same reasons - we didn't learn then either), in some industries they're already innovating and imo the lack of formal structure and stupid regulations will aid them greatly whilst we'll be left floundering and holding onto our protectionist systems, playing the trade wars game and basically getting nowhere.

As for the concept of inferior copies - that's fairly old news. The best Chinese stuff is pretty good, a lot of it is better than the stuff we produce and up there with some of the best manufacturers in the world. They've got the cash to pay for spanking new factories with cutting edge technology and machinery and they're spending it.

That's not to say they don't produce some rubbish, but I can find you no shortage of British built rubbish either. ;)
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 8:34 pm

al_yrpal wrote:... limiting access to our green and pleasant land.

Al


I suppose it would be inappropriate to explain what message this carefully chosen lyrical passage is supposed to convey.


I promised to be good and it is probably best I stay out of this thread.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mick F » Sat May 24, 2014 8:42 pm

Edwards wrote:We do not stand a chance of getting None of the Above, so we need a decent protest against these rich people.
We can spoil our ballot papers, but all that is recorded is "spoiled".

If no-one voted - ie a 0% turnout - that would give them ALL a kick up the bum. Trouble is, we can't vote for None of the Above, and we will never get a 0% turnout, and a spoiled ballot paper is just that, a spoiled ballot paper. I hear that there was only a 36% turnout yesterday.

Better IMHO if we had a 0% turnout or a 100% turnout. 36% is neither here nor there.

The only thing available at this present moment, is to vote for a protest party.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby al_yrpal » Sat May 24, 2014 8:59 pm

grani wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:... limiting access to our green and pleasant land.

Al


I suppose it would be inappropriate to explain what message this carefully chosen lyrical passage is supposed to convey.


I promised to be good and it is probably best I stay out of this thread.


It simply means that in a country that is already overpopulated compared with most others that we try to maintain the current level of population, and possibly reduce our population so that our schools hospitals and transport facilities can cope, nothing more. Just let in the number to balance those that leave. My criteria wouldn't discriminate against anybody. Those that can contribute something would be especially welcome as would genuine asylum seekers and there would be no bar to any race or religion. As you say, if you are going to get personal and cast unwarranted slurs, it probably best to keep quiet.

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 9:13 pm

al_yrpal wrote:
grani wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:... limiting access to our green and pleasant land.

Al


I suppose it would be inappropriate to explain what message this carefully chosen lyrical passage is supposed to convey.


I promised to be good and it is probably best I stay out of this thread.


It simply means that in a country that is already overpopulated compared with most others that we try to maintain the current level of population, and possibly reduce our population so that our schools hospitals and transport facilities can cope, nothing more. Just let in the number to balance those that leave. My criteria wouldn't discriminate against anybody. Those that can contribute something would be especially welcome as would genuine asylum seekers and there would be no bar to any race or religion. As you say, if you are going to get personal and cast unwarranted slurs, it probably best to keep quiet.

Al


No worries - I just thought it was a curious choice of words as they are usually used in a very particular setting.

If you didn't want any controversy I should imagine you could have phrased it differently. There is no personal attack in that other than amazement of the choice of words to follow the debate just before.

Whatever floats your boat.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Kenn » Sat May 24, 2014 9:28 pm

Tactical voting for UKiP can deliver the wrong message to the mainstream political parties. You may want to tell them to leave the EU and they interpret your UKIP vote as a call to stop immigration and trash the environment.

I reckon it's better to vote according to your principles. My biggest concern is the state of the world that my children and grandchildren will inhabit, which is why I voted Green. They are also the party who would deliver the best support for cycling. They may not get many seats yet, but I think their support will grow - especially when the effects of global warming start to really take effect.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mick F » Sat May 24, 2014 9:35 pm

grani wrote:Whatever floats your boat.
Exactly.

Get rid of the old two party system. Yes, we now have a 2.5 party system, and the Scots have had a 2.5 or even 3 party system for a while, but we in England only had a 2 party system since ever I could remember .............. and I go back to remembering the Heath vs Wilson days ............. even Macmillan and Douglas Home vs Wilson.

Two choices.
One or the other.
Rubbish or rubbish.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Vorpal » Sat May 24, 2014 9:43 pm

Kenn wrote:Tactical voting for UKiP can deliver the wrong message to the mainstream political parties. You may want to tell them to leave the EU and they interpret your UKIP vote as a call to stop immigration and trash the environment.

I reckon it's better to vote according to your principles. My biggest concern is the state of the world that my children and grandchildren will inhabit, which is why I voted Green. They are also the party who would deliver the best support for cycling. They may not get many seats yet, but I think their support will grow - especially when the effects of global warming start to really take effect.


I've done the same thing. When I was campaigning for cyclists' rights in the UK, I found the local Green party to be active and enthusiastic allies. They also campaigned locally for 20 mph speed limits in the village They got my vote for those things.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 9:45 pm

This two party system has failed a long time ago but putting something like UKIP forward as a viable alternative is going down a very dangerous path in my opinion.

In an ideal world you would have both Labour and the Conservatives subdivided. This is relatively common in some countries after a power struggle within a party and I think it might be good for British politics.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Mick F » Sat May 24, 2014 9:51 pm

I don't think anyone is putting UKIP down as a realistic viable alternative. They haven't got a cat's chance of getting elected into parliament.

I only voted for them as a protest vote.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby irc » Sat May 24, 2014 9:55 pm

Kenn wrote:Tactical voting for UKiP can deliver the wrong message to the mainstream political parties. You may want to tell them to leave the EU and they interpret your UKIP vote as a call to stop immigration and trash the environment.


Leave the EU? Yes. Then we can control immigration? Sounds good. Works for Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc. Why not?

Trash the environment? In what way?
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby TonyR » Sat May 24, 2014 10:06 pm

Mick F wrote:I don't think anyone is putting UKIP down as a realistic viable alternative. They haven't got a cat's chance of getting elected into parliament.

I only voted for them as a protest vote.


That has been said many times round the world about minority parties that have then gone on to get elected and trash their country - as would happen if UKIP policies were to be put into effect. It happens because of lots of people individually thinking their single protest vote won't make a difference to the election outcome.

Be careful what you vote for.
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