Vote UKIP...

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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 5:23 pm

beardy wrote:
It is not socially acceptable to be openly racist hence there is UKIP.


There were still tick boxes on my ballot paper for BNP and Britain First (a splinter group who had to leave BNP for being too middle ground!).

Yet swathes who voted for them (and Lib Dem, Labour and Conservative) last time have moved to UKIP.

It could be that they have decided to run with the ones who stand a chance or it could be that they are being offered a chance to vote for immigration control without the racism.

Though really it is probably because they are fed up with lying politicians breaking promises (Farage hasnt had his chance to do it yet) and want to try and exercise some power over them, voting UKIP is the way that the media presented to them, to achieve this.


You talk a good game and you're doing a good job constructing a scenario in which your logic stands up. I will not entertain it and it is not my problem that you don't like the true name of these views and how ashamed people should be of them.

Whatever the labels in my view the leopard doesn't change its spots.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby beardy » Sat May 24, 2014 5:30 pm

Whatever the labels in my view the leopard doesn't change its spots.


I think that the now UKIP leopard is not formerly a BNP beast but is formerly a Conservative beast. If you (hold your nose and) look through Drossall's list of their evils you will see for most of them they are acting side by side with their Conservative friends.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 5:43 pm

beardy wrote:
Whatever the labels in my view the leopard doesn't change its spots.


I think that the now UKIP leopard is not formerly a BNP beast but is formerly a Conservative beast. If you (hold your nose and) look through Drossall's list of their evils you will see for most of them they are acting side by side with their Conservative friends.


Just because people went from the conservatives to UKIP doesn't mean that the views aren't fundamentally aligned with the BNP. You know that and again we return to your spurious scenario.


What UKIP has done is given the conservatives racists and xenophobe voters a palatable alternative to the BNP. You know that and you don't like the label. Tough bloody luck.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Psamathe » Sat May 24, 2014 5:48 pm

Regarding The Immigration Aspects To This Discussion:
UK has a major problem with too many people. Over-population causes loads of problems and politicians seem unprepared to address the issue. But the issue is over-population which is not necessarily related to immigration. Personally I don't much care where people come from - they are all people. But when we have too many the population issues need to be resolved. But politicians these days seem to be looking for scapegoats and are more interested in short term easy things that get them votes than in actually solving anything.

So extreme politics starts blaming immigrants where the problem is really population. And the rest of the politicians just react, 'cos that is easier than addressing a real problem. So rather than discussing the real problem, immigration becomes the issue and that plays into the hands the weirder and more extreme politicians. And there are all sorts of degrees of racist politics - seems more a question as where a party/politician is on the scale.

Solve the population issue and loads of our other problems go away.
(But to complicate it all, whilst the UK has a population issue, so does the entire world).

Ian
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby beardy » Sat May 24, 2014 5:52 pm

I think that the Tories who have gone to UKIP have not changed much from how they were thirty years ago, when they voted for Maggie and not the NF.

On the other hand their party has moved to the same place as the one New Labour moved to.

I happen to think voting Conservative is something to be ashamed of and voting UKIP is only a little bit worse.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 5:58 pm

Psamathe wrote:Regarding The Immigration Aspects To This Discussion:
UK has a major problem with too many people. Over-population causes loads of problems and politicians seem unprepared to address the issue. But the issue is over-population which is not necessarily related to immigration. Personally I don't much care where people come from - they are all people. But when we have too many the population issues need to be resolved. But politicians these days seem to be looking for scapegoats and are more interested in short term easy things that get them votes than in actually solving anything.

So extreme politics starts blaming immigrants where the problem is really population. And the rest of the politicians just react, 'cos that is easier than addressing a real problem. So rather than discussing the real problem, immigration becomes the issue and that plays into the hands the weirder and more extreme politicians. And there are all sorts of degrees of racist politics - seems more a question as where a party/politician is on the scale.

Solve the population issue and loads of our other problems go away.
(But to complicate it all, whilst the UK has a population issue, so does the entire world).

Ian


Thank you and I completely agree with a serious attempt to deal with actual problems caused by population and its changes. Politicians are tasked with solving the social problems and being stewards of a fair society.

UKIP and its ilk does not have any interest in anything of that. The aim at the moment is to exploit the age old political trick of scapegoating. Any attempt to try to sanitize that aim is contemptible.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby al_yrpal » Sat May 24, 2014 6:05 pm

downfader wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Its hilarious to see all the big political names furiously back peddling and giving respect to UKIP voters. They hadn't realised that calling UKIP racists instantly infuriated anyone who sympathised with controls on immigration and unfairly branded them racists too. I voted UKIP to kick these people in the nuts. They promised referendums which they reneged on, they dragged their feet on EU reform too, as Farage says they are just a load of PPE grads who don't live in the real world. Although I have voted all my life I don't feel I have ever had anyone to vote for.

Al


May I ask - then why vote UKIP if there are more people-centric parties? For example the Green Party - pro working rights, fair trade deals, fair pay, anti the large corps power grabs, whilst they havent implicitly agreed to an EU referendum they are open to it.

If you vote for a party you dont support the ideology of does that not risk causing wider implications? Not that UKIP were ever going to take over Britain thursday there have been issues with a few of their councillors in the past.


Because the Green Party live in cuckoo land :D as far as I am concerned. I think that many of their ideas are simply extremist out of touch nuts. Worse IMO than any other party with MPs

Al
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 6:16 pm

al_yrpal wrote:
downfader wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Its hilarious to see all the big political names furiously back peddling and giving respect to UKIP voters. They hadn't realised that calling UKIP racists instantly infuriated anyone who sympathised with controls on immigration and unfairly branded them racists too. I voted UKIP to kick these people in the nuts. They promised referendums which they reneged on, they dragged their feet on EU reform too, as Farage says they are just a load of PPE grads who don't live in the real world. Although I have voted all my life I don't feel I have ever had anyone to vote for.

Al


May I ask - then why vote UKIP if there are more people-centric parties? For example the Green Party - pro working rights, fair trade deals, fair pay, anti the large corps power grabs, whilst they havent implicitly agreed to an EU referendum they are open to it.

If you vote for a party you dont support the ideology of does that not risk causing wider implications? Not that UKIP were ever going to take over Britain thursday there have been issues with a few of their councillors in the past.


Because the Green Party live in cuckoo land :D as far as I am concerned. I think that many of their ideas are simply extremist out of touch nuts. Worse IMO than any other party with MPs

Al


Pathetic and you really should be ashamed of yourself but you seem to struggle with that part of the human condition.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby beardy » Sat May 24, 2014 6:26 pm

Grani,

In an ideal world, I would invite yourself and some UKIP supporter (not that I can think of any off hand) over to tea and see if either of you were willing to listen to what the other had to say.

It is what Mandella or Ghandi would have done, I am sure.

They may turn out just to be human beings with a different viewpoint rather than evil monsters, completely different from yourself.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby Si » Sat May 24, 2014 6:30 pm

I think some of the posts in this thread are getting a little over confrontational. Can we revert back to a more civilised and friendly debate please. Think about it: if your point of view is reasoned and logical then there should be no need to resort to aggressive behaviour to get it across - the need to be aggressive suggests to me that you are not confident in your own view.

And also remember, such confrontational behaviour is a trait of some of the political parties that are being argued against on here - let's be better than that eh? :wink:
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 6:44 pm

Fair enough - I think having had to deal with this nonsense on a daily basis for a few years now has made me a bit bitter.

I'll stay out of this or keep it a bit more calm but I am not going to change a single word I have posted and I speak mostly from first hand experience.

The suggestion of me being unsure of my arguments is a bit of a fallacy as in my opinion there has not been a fair basis to have an informed discussion.

There are no monsters in this world but only humans. Humans with that can and will facilitate monstrous behaviour and unless we are vigilant history will repeat itself.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby 661-Pete » Sat May 24, 2014 6:51 pm

I fled from the Cyclechat forum some time ago, for various reasons: one of them was the climate of persistent personal attacks, slanging matches and foul language that pervade that forum. I had hoped to leave that sort of thing behind me. This forum is a good community with lots of decent folks on it. Echoing what Si has said, let's keep it that way!
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby beardy » Sat May 24, 2014 6:52 pm

Grani,
I dont doubt that you have met some racist behaviour since living here.

I would be surprised if they did not come in pretty equal numbers from the choice of political parties.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby grani » Sat May 24, 2014 7:02 pm

I would agree with that but it has been the steady drip feeding of the same message that has gotten to me. It seems that it is now completely acceptable to openly discuss discriminatory policies under the banner of namely UKIP. Of course the other parties follow suit but the climate is getting worse and not better.

I do come to this forum for other purposes than to discuss politics and I prefer it that way. When this thread greets me daily it feels like another haven for me has been violated.

Some might think that I go a bit over the top with this but I sense that not many will truly understand how deeply offensive the language of these politics is to someone like myself.
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Re: Vote UKIP...

Postby downfader » Sat May 24, 2014 7:43 pm

kwackers wrote:
TonyR wrote:and a Chinese environmental policy - get rid of the green subsidies and invest them in fracking.

I think that's an insult to the Chinese. They're massively ramping up their renewables expenditure whilst we're cutting ours.


The bad thing about the Chinese and renewables is the potential of them exploiting cheap labour, as they did with building and factories. They have the power to flood their country with them cheaply, and benefit quickly from both the generation and the export of the electricity. They have no fear of patents or copyright.

Which if it happens could be bad for developing new technologies. The original creators wouldnt see a penny or their reputation could be damaged by consumers being mislead into inferior copies.
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