BT Openreach cyclists stay back

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drossall
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by drossall »

Psamathe wrote:I think the various cycling bodies (including CTC) need to start something of a campaign against these stickers urgently.

Ian


:?: :?: They have. See a few messages back in this thread.
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mjr
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by mjr »

Here's what I posted in the "smallest vehicle" thread:
Image
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Postboxer
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Postboxer »

I pulled up in my car behind a bus that had a sticker a bit like this, but with a bus pictured, and with more emphasis on the indicator being used-it was also at the same height as the real indicator on the bus.

Image

The bus was stopped at a red light, with one car in front of it, not indicating, when the lights changed, the bus started to move and then started indicating that it was turning left, clearly the sticker needs to be in the cab.
binsted
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by binsted »

Just seen this thread and have not read all the posts. I have no connection or axe to grind but over the winter in torrential rain a BT Openreach van pulled alongside and asked if I would like a lift as the roads were flooded.

Good and bad drivers are found everywhere.
37262
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by 37262 »

As both a keen beginner to cycling and a Openreach Van Driver, I have to say that both parties have to share the road by giving and taking.
I find that when I am turning left into Carpenters Road from Stratford High Street in the evenings, there are some of the cycling fraternity that refuse to acknowledge my presence, which in itself is a bit difficult as the van is the large box type and I am clearly indicating left, anyway I digress, what I seek is clarification to the following point.

Who, the cyclist, or the vehicle has right of way at this junction?, it is part of the cycle superhighway and is coloured blue, but there are no signs saying who has right of way.

I recently e-mailed TFL with regard this question, but received a complete load of twaddle by way of reply which went no where in clearing up the issue.
I think its only a matter of time before there is a serious accident at this spot.
As I say some cyclists readily acknowledge my intention to turn left and come around to my right hand side in order to be able to move straight ahead without stopping or running the risk of being flattened, others just give me abuse safe in the know that I would lose my job if I chose to retaliate.
That said, I take my hat off to those of you that cycle in London, I certainly would'nt have the bottle.
grani
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by grani »

37262 wrote:As both a keen beginner to cycling and a Openreach Van Driver, I have to say that both parties have to share the road by giving and taking.
I find that when I am turning left into Carpenters Road from Stratford High Street in the evenings, there are some of the cycling fraternity that refuse to acknowledge my presence, which in itself is a bit difficult as the van is the large box type and I am clearly indicating left, anyway I digress, what I seek is clarification to the following point.

Who, the cyclist, or the vehicle has right of way at this junction?, it is part of the cycle superhighway and is coloured blue, but there are no signs saying who has right of way.

I recently e-mailed TFL with regard this question, but received a complete load of twaddle by way of reply which went no where in clearing up the issue.
I think its only a matter of time before there is a serious accident at this spot.
As I say some cyclists readily acknowledge my intention to turn left and come around to my right hand side in order to be able to move straight ahead without stopping or running the risk of being flattened, others just give me abuse safe in the know that I would lose my job if I chose to retaliate.
That said, I take my hat off to those of you that cycle in London, I certainly would'nt have the bottle.
As a former HGV driver I appreciate the challenges of driving a van safely. You have however not at all made a comment about what this thread is about. Have you made any complaints about the sticker on the back of your van?
Psamathe
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Psamathe »

37262 wrote:Who, the cyclist, or the vehicle has right of way at this junction?, it is part of the cycle superhighway and is coloured blue, but there are no signs saying who has right of way.

To my mind, a bike is a vehicle. If you in your BT OpenReach van had a car on your inside would you just turn across in front of it ?

The stickers do not give your van any additional rights. In fact they attempt to take away some cyclists' rights e.g. on a cycle lane maybe giving access to an ASL - why should a cyclist obey the BT van sticker rather than use the lane properly marked to be used as a cycle lane.

But it is more than about "rights". The tone of the sticker is insulting. It perpetuates the "blame the victim" principle used too often. The tone of the warning could be far less insulting to cyclists e.g. "Warning: Driver has limited visibility on inside". Achieves the same without the van demanding rights it does not have and without the insulting tone.

I would ask you raise the issue with your line management. I am changing my purchasing habits based on companies using the stickers (e.g. I will no longer deal with Tavis Perkins and as I've spent over £2000 on building materials in the last week ...).

Ian
drossall
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by drossall »

Although the question is slightly off topic for the thread, it's been asked openly, and I'm not sure that the answers to date are entirely helpful. However, I don't know the area, so any comment I make is from a degree of ignorance. The best description I could get was the following image from this page, and I'm not sure whether this design proposal is how it has actually been built:

Image

On the face of it, cyclists going straight ahead have a dashed line, a lane marker, separating them from motor vehicles that are turning left. Normal road rules would say that you cede priority to vehicles already in a lane when wanting to move into it or to cross it, so the cyclists should be given priority by drivers, even if that means waiting a significant time because there are some tens of cyclists approaching.

It's pretty much the same, in terms of road markings, as turning left when starting in the right-hand lane of a dual carriageway. Say you suddenly decided to change route and turn left, because the road ahead was jammed - before entering the left lane, you'd make jolly sure that it was clear and that nothing was coming up behind.

The difference from a standard road junction is that the cyclists are defined (by the white lines) as being in a separate lane. Normally, cyclists occupy the same traffic lane as motor vehicles, and so should not move left of a left-turning vehicle. Again, this is no different from cars, though they normally are too wide to try - but imagine that you were slow in turning left at a junction and a driver tried to nip past on your left to get ahead - it must have happened somewhere! In that case, the driver to your left would be in the wrong. Generally speaking, then, there's no real difference between cars and bikes - both are vehicles, and the rules of conduct for each, and towards each, are the same.

The advanced stop line for cyclists is there to help with 37262's problem, by giving as many cyclists as possible a head start and getting them out of the way before vehicles turn left. Drivers should therefore avoid blocking the ASL, or moving left early and blocking access to it. Cyclists arriving after the lights go green would be unwise to dash up the side of left-turning vehicles, even though those vehicles should cede priority before crossing the cyclists' lane, just as someone approaching a junction in the left lane of a dual carriageway at 70mph would be especially unwise to charge through if a vehicle in the right lane were showing brake lights and a left indicator. Being in the right and avoiding crashes are not always the same thing!

Again, subject to the diagram being accurate, I would respectfully suggest, however, that the idea of not entering an occupied lane is pretty fundamental. (And right of way is your entitlement to use a road in the first place. The issue of who goes first is about priority, not right of way, and is best thought of in terms of your responsibility to give priority, rather than your right to take it.)

That's the way I see it...
Flinders
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Flinders »

I think I may put a sticker on my car.
it could read-

Openreach drivers-
-don't tailgate
-don't overtake on a blind bend across double solid white lines and then force your way into a line of traffic
-don't speed

(I've seen them do all of these things, in one case all at one go, and they are all illegal, whereas overtaking on the inside by cycles is a) legal and b) necessary if you are to use the advance start boxes.)[/b]

and possibly also:
-don't chuck your waste scraps of coloured wire over the hedge into my allotment when you've been working on the box alongside[/b]
:mrgreen:
Vorpal
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Vorpal »

Any design that puts a forward moving lane on the left of left-turning vehicles is a poor design. But that is neither 37262's fault, nor the cyclists', but TfL's.

That said, there is little advice that I can offer other than that 37262 be patient and wait until it is completely clear. And don't forget to watch for the silly person going the wrong way, in the bike lane, as well. It may seem unlikely. As a driver, I seldom see cyclists do this, but as a cyclist, I'm surprised by the frequency with which I encounter others going the wrong way in my lane.
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drossall
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by drossall »

According to the description I read, some parts of the cycle superhighway are bidirectional, although it does not seem to apply to that part.
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mjr
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by mjr »

Riding against traffic in a unidirectional lane is called salmon-ing by some and often results when inadequate highway designers put a cycle lane on only one side, with no markings or positive instruction in the other direction.
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kwackers
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by kwackers »

mjr wrote:Riding against traffic in a unidirectional lane is called salmon-ing by some and often results when inadequate highway designers put a cycle lane on only one side, with no markings or positive instruction in the other direction.

Also when there's a fairly short cycle lane that takes you from where you are to where you want to go against the traffic - you'd use the one on the other side of the road but for 100m it isn't worthwhile and would require crossing a dual carriageway twice.
(Or at least that's why I've done it in the past, not that any other cyclists seem to use it - and it does annoy car drivers although you've got to wonder why...)
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661-Pete
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by 661-Pete »

Just spotted this example parked in our street.
Cyclists_stay_back.jpg

Sticker bang in the middle of the rear door, and it's only a small 15cwt type van.
So what's the message? Admittedly, from the position where I took this piccy, you can't see the side mirrors, so presumaby a driver couldn't have seen me. But that's true of a lot of vehicles. And the problem rests with the vehicle, not the cyclist...
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ArMoRothair
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by ArMoRothair »

37262 wrote:I find that when I am turning left into Carpenters Road from Stratford High Street in the evenings, there are some of the cycling fraternity that refuse to acknowledge my presence,


There is a real problem with our UK driving test. Drivers get licences believing their indicators give them priority. We had exactly the same scenario, as 37262's example above, reported by one of our House of Commons Transport Select Committee members. He also genuinely believed that once he put his indicator out he had priority turning left and was upset because cyclists have had the audacity to remonstrate with him.

If you use your indicator in a vehicle it means "I would like to turn", it is then up to you to make sure your way is clear; and if you have to wait a long time that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Welcome to the forum. For a first post you've put your head into the lion's den :) I hope it doesn't put you off. Good luck with beginning cycling, I hope you find it as fulfilling and useful as most on here do.
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