BT Openreach cyclists stay back

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reohn2
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by reohn2 »

Flinders wrote:I was, I thought, fairly clear that I was talking about legal responsibility rather than self-preservation*. If people persist in muddling the two, cyclists will continue to be blamed when other people break the law and kill/maim them.

No muddling by me.
But we live in a lunatic asylum,where wrong has become right and there is little enforcement of the law,mainly because policing the roads has become politicised to such an extent a driver has to kill some one deliberately to attract any kind of effective penalty :twisted:

You can't ever be sure 100% some numpty won't turn left across you.

If you treat them all as potential idiotic loonies you won't go wrong,once you begin trusting anyone else on the road you're sunk.
But on your advice, at some junctions cyclists would be stuck permanently to the left of all vehicles and never get across a junction at all, and we'd have to stop in the road whenever we were overtaken near a junction.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion I almost always filter to the front of any line of stationary traffic by using the right side unless there's a chance of a vehicle turning right.



*and that I anticipated bad driving accordingly[/quote]
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Today someone at the head of a queue didn't bother indicating whilst they waited. Fortunately the started as they pulled away, and looked in their mirrors.

My normal invisibility wasn't working - as his window was open I could tell them to keep going...
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Vorpal »

I very seldom filter left for many reasons...
-passengers sometimes open doors into them, taking advantage of slow/stopped traffic to get out
-other road users turn left across them without looking
-other road users pull in (to park, drop off passengers, etc.) without looking
-if the light changes while I am in a filter lane, I become 'invisible' to traffic turning across (right) from the oncoming lane
-if the light changes while I am in a filter lane, I have to stay to the left of traffic
-it can be hard to get back into the flow of traffic in the main lane(s) if the cycle lane does not continue

I do filter right, or between lanes if...
-there are no large vehicles (e.g. buses, HGVs, oversized builders' vans, delivery trucks, etc.) in the lane(s) I am overtaking / filtering between
-I am reasonably confident that I can reinsert myself into the flow of traffic when or before the light changes

The only time I have filtered on the left with any regularity, it was where I hopped onto a shared use facility just before a junction.

I generally dislike cycle lanes, and tend to come out of them before junctions, so I can enter junctions in primary, even if it means joining a queue for a bit.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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mjr
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by mjr »

I can think of a few where I filter on the left: New Bristol Road, Weston-super-Mare; Hills Road, Cambridge; a few in London.

New Bristol Road lanes are too narrow but almost no-one stops to drop off there and not much turns at the Station Road lights (the other junctions are awkward so people drive a bit more carefully anyway). Meanwhile the mixed traffic lane is also narrow (so little space to filter on right) and if you waited in line, you'd be at more risk of getting crushed in the far-too-common nose-tail shunts of holiday traffic trying to be cute and find a shortcut to/from the motorway than you are from the cycle lane hazards.

In the cities, I'm generally paranoid and fairly noisy if I suspect a driver is about to do something silly that will affect me, whereas the cycle lanes are wider than most and it really does help cut through the queues. Even so, I'm very cautious about using the northbound one on Hills Road bridge over the railway Image if I want to turn right into Brooklands because it could get messy if the lights change at the wrong moment. I think I move right across the mixed traffic lane a few vehicles before the front of the queue.

So I've no ideological opposition to them, but I won't usually ride in narrow rubbish lanes that are far too common in this country. For example, I won't ride in the narrow nasties at Austin Street, King's Lynn. Vorpal's list of drawbacks is almost a checklist for every highways designer to test if they're building dangerous rubbish.
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kwackers
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by kwackers »

I treat filtering left exactly the same as filtering right.
In both cases I need to be sure I can get to the front or reinsert myself into the traffic flow if it starts moving, in both cases I wouldn't over/undertake a largish vehicle if I was in any doubt it would begin moving before I'd passed it by a good margin.

Overall I don't really see that there's much difference and indeed sometimes undertaking is safer since you don't get numpties suddenly deciding to do a U turn just as you're passing them.
reohn2
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:I treat filtering left exactly the same as filtering right.
In both cases I need to be sure I can get to the front or reinsert myself into the traffic flow if it starts moving, in both cases I wouldn't over/undertake a largish vehicle if I was in any doubt it would begin moving before I'd passed it by a good margin.

Overall I don't really see that there's much difference and indeed sometimes undertaking is safer since you don't get numpties suddenly deciding to do a U turn just as you're passing them.


IME it depends on the road,width and layout.I very often experience motors moving to the left when they see me overtaking if the jam/line/queue is moving slowly ie;long traffic line,light sequence with a number of TL changes before they get to the front.
They also do it for motorcycles and I'd bet they don't check their nearside mirror when they do,it's another reason I don't filter on the left unless I'm absolutely sure it's safe ie;traffic stopped with no chance of it moving.
I'm exttrreemmeellyy cautious around HGV's as I'm aware they have,rightly or wrongly,blind spots and as you say if there's a chance of an HGV moving I'm staying put until I'm sure it's safe to o/take it.
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Vorpal
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Vorpal »

I think that the number of numpties who would do a u-turn without looking outside (where, after all, other traffic may be overtaking or filtering) is smaller than the number of numpties who may park or pull in without looking inside for traffic.
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drossall
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by drossall »

reohn2 wrote:I very often experience motors moving to the left when they see me overtaking if the jam/line/queue is moving slowly...


I agree; let's be fair, there are lots of people out there who are very happy to help someone else move along, even if they can't. Not sure about the checking the left mirror bit that you mentioned; it's possible, but going up the left side when another cyclist is going up the right, and space is adequate but not huge, is probably another thing on the list of not-very-sensible behaviours, unless of course you actually want to put motorists in a pincer movement.
kwackers
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by kwackers »

Vorpal wrote:I think that the number of numpties who would do a u-turn without looking outside (where, after all, other traffic may be overtaking or filtering) is smaller than the number of numpties who may park or pull in without looking inside for traffic.

That's true if traffic is moving - but then if it's moving I'd probably not be undertaking. OTOH when overtaking on the outside and traffic isn't moving that's exactly when Mr/Ms impatient will suddenly on a spur of the moment swing out to do a U'ey.
reohn2
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by reohn2 »

drossall wrote:I agree; let's be fair, there are lots of people out there who are very happy to help someone else move along, even if they can't.

Yes,not everyone's out to get us :wink:
Not sure about the checking the left mirror bit that you mentioned; it's possible, but going up the left side when another cyclist is going up the right, and space is adequate but not huge, is probably another thing on the list of not-very-sensible behaviours, unless of course you actually want to put motorists in a pincer movement.


I'm reminder of the Saab driver turning left across a cycle lane and into an undertaking cyclist,in the York video of a few months back.
TBH I would no way have gone up the inside of that car,the cyclist was bonkers however ''right'' he was.
I see motorists and cyclists perform some of the strangest manoeuvres to gain the minutest of (as they see it)gains,both when I'm driving and cycling,some of which completely begger belief.
I mentioned motorcycles deliberately,if a cyclist chooses the inside undertaking manoeuvre and a motorcyclist is coming up the outside faster than the cyclist and motorist chooses to give the m/cyclist some room by moving left BAM!
Yes the motorist should check the nearside but all too frequently they don't.

We've got to accept that our overloaded the roads are full of potential lunatics,that I find is a far safer approach to using them.
We've also got to accept that the police are practically non existent,and that they're so woefully under strength that they have to prioritise the attention to the most serious of crimes.With a backdrop of politrickians not wanting to prosecute motorists,cyclists come pretty low on the attention scale unless the injuries are serious.
In fact I'd go as far as to say that cyclists are looked upon as more of a road problem than a solution by a good percentage of people who don't cycle,including the police.
Despite that cycnical outlook,cycling is enjoying a renaissance like never before,perhaps at some point when a critical mass is reached attitudes toward cycling in the UK may change,but I'm not holding my breath.
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MattS
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by MattS »

Psamathe wrote:
michael42 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Who started this "Cyclists Stay Back" campaign (which I find highly offensive). Seems like the campaign organisers are blaming cyclists (again) for poor drivers.


Well it really means "don't overtake down the inside" - if you do that you can't really blame the other vehicle if it hits you.


Maybe the message would be clearer if it said don't overtake down the inside. And I suspect that might also prevent mopeds, pedestrians, etc. doing the same rather than targeting cyclists with a very unclear message.

And if it was London ... I thought London were meant to be "pro-cyclist", what with Boris and all his PR shots of him bicycling places. Maybe just that PR and spin.

Still, I would hope the various cycling bodies are objecting to this sticker turning up on all sorts of vehicles, including those who have better visibility ?

Ian



London is DEFINITELY not pro cyclist. Boris puts on a good show but the city is most definitely dominated by cars / buses / HGV.. Its all a facade! Painting a blue cycle highway doesn't protect cyclists in the city.

But I agree with all of your points. "Cyclists Stay Back" in my opinion means "I put this sticker on my vehicle so I can turn left whenever I want and dont need to look because I told you to stay back"..
reohn2
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I think that the number of numpties who would do a u-turn without looking outside (where, after all, other traffic may be overtaking or filtering) is smaller than the number of numpties who may park or pull in without looking inside for traffic.

That's true if traffic is moving - but then if it's moving I'd probably not be undertaking. OTOH when overtaking on the outside and traffic isn't moving that's exactly when Mr/Ms impatient will suddenly on a spur of the moment swing out to do a U'ey.


On a percentage basis I'll take my chances on the outside rather than the 'blind' side between car and curb.
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kwackers
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:On a percentage basis I'll take my chances on the outside rather than the 'blind' side between car and curb.

All I can say is I've never had an issue undertaking but I've had several near misses overtaking.

If the traffic is stationary you simply *can't* have an issue when undertaking since it's got nowhere to go nor has any reason to. With overtaking you're dealing with impatience, U turns and that occasional mad dash to reach a right turn/filter in the gap in oncoming traffic.
As with everything though all IMO and YMMV.
Postboxer
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Postboxer »

I saw a National Express coach the other day that had a sticker with a picture of a bike and a message something like, 'Caution, this vehicle has blind spots' - seemed fairish.
Vorpal
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Re: BT Openreach cyclists stay back

Post by Vorpal »

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:On a percentage basis I'll take my chances on the outside rather than the 'blind' side between car and curb.

All I can say is I've never had an issue undertaking but I've had several near misses overtaking.

If the traffic is stationary you simply *can't* have an issue when undertaking since it's got nowhere to go nor has any reason to. With overtaking you're dealing with impatience, U turns and that occasional mad dash to reach a right turn/filter in the gap in oncoming traffic.
As with everything though all IMO and YMMV.

I've had car drivers move their cars in toward the kerb in stationary traffic to (apparently) deliberately block me. On the outside, that is difficult to do, especially if there are motorcycles filtering in traffic, as well.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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