The coach crash in Looe has been extensively reported in the Daily Mail. A picture shows the road sign on the hill where the coach crashed; it shows an 11% incline. This is how the Daily Mail reported it:
Road hazard: A sign at the bottom of the hill where the crash happened, showing an 11-degree incline
Can anyone explain this?
11 degree or 11%?
11 degree or 11%?
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
Yes. The Daily Mail reporters are idiots. Did we not already know this?
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
karlt wrote:Yes. The Daily Mail reporters are idiots. Did we not already know this?
That's not fair...to idiots
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
How about:
The driver wrestled with the wheel before it turned onto its side, throwing the occupants around, and all the windows apparently blew out, witnesses said. Seven more passengers were seriously injured
As it did so it turned on its side and all the windows blew out and it lost all the glass. The passengers from the other side of the coach were deeply shocked by it all.’
And witness Tracy Chudleigh told BBC Spotlight: 'From what the passengers were saying, the coach actually ended up almost turning over, but the driver managed to get it back on all its wheels.
'If it had tipped over it would have come down the hill on its side, which would have probably resulted in a lot more loss of life.'
The driver wrestled with the wheel before it turned onto its side, throwing the occupants around, and all the windows apparently blew out, witnesses said. Seven more passengers were seriously injured
As it did so it turned on its side and all the windows blew out and it lost all the glass. The passengers from the other side of the coach were deeply shocked by it all.’
And witness Tracy Chudleigh told BBC Spotlight: 'From what the passengers were saying, the coach actually ended up almost turning over, but the driver managed to get it back on all its wheels.
'If it had tipped over it would have come down the hill on its side, which would have probably resulted in a lot more loss of life.'
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
[XAP]Bob wrote:karlt wrote:Yes. The Daily Mail reporters are idiots. Did we not already know this?
That's not fair...to idiots
Well, it's a bit cruel to idiots.
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
karlt wrote:[XAP]Bob wrote:karlt wrote:Yes. The Daily Mail reporters are idiots. Did we not already know this?
That's not fair...to idiots
Well, it's a bit cruel to idiots.
Aren't idiots supposed to be highly intelligent people?
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Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
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Re: 11 degree or 11%?
horizon wrote:How about:
The driver wrestled with the wheel before it turned onto its side, throwing the occupants around, and all the windows apparently blew out, witnesses said. Seven more passengers were seriously injured
As it did so it turned on its side and all the windows blew out and it lost all the glass. The passengers from the other side of the coach were deeply shocked by it all.’
And witness Tracy Chudleigh told BBC Spotlight: 'From what the passengers were saying, the coach actually ended up almost turning over, but the driver managed to get it back on all its wheels.
'If it had tipped over it would have come down the hill on its side, which would have probably resulted in a lot more loss of life.'
LOL - Just need a touch more Michael Bay to make it the perfect media story!
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
I'm not sure why the nitpicking with the quality of the journalism of what is actually a tragic event for those concerned. It's the DM, FGS 
I'm actually interested in the question of why 11% rather than 11 degrees, something I've not considered at any length until now. I can visualize a grade (as in 3 in 1 - No, not the oil! ), I can visualize 33 degrees, but I can't easily visualize 33% (33% of what? 
). All I know is that it's a 3 in 1 hill and it's bloomin steep. Can somebody explain why grades, then % came about, rather than degrees?
I'm actually interested in the question of why 11% rather than 11 degrees, something I've not considered at any length until now. I can visualize a grade (as in 3 in 1 - No, not the oil!
), I can visualize 33 degrees, but I can't easily visualize 33% (33% of what? ). All I know is that it's a 3 in 1 hill and it's bloomin steep. Can somebody explain why grades, then % came about, rather than degrees?Re: 11 degree or 11%?
Well a percentage is just another mathematically equal way of expressing a fraction or a ratio (1 in 3 is 1:3 = 1/3 = 33.333...%, 1 in 10 is 1:10 = 1/10 = 10%, 1 in 4 is 1:4 = 1/4 = 25% etc.)
All of these describe the height gained (rise) for each unit of horizontal travel (run) and therefore the gradient or slope of the road. For example your 1 in 3 hill (you do mean 1 in 3 rather than 3 in 1) rises 1 yard for every 3 travelled horizontally. For a 10% hill the height you climb is 10% of the distance you travel horizontally.
Using degrees means thinking in a different way. Instead of the relationship between the rise and run of the slope you are expressing the angle to the horizontal.
Each method has it's own benefits and particular uses. I'm guessing civil engineers building a sloping road would work in degrees. I think that it is more natural for normal road users to think in terms of distances than angles. To a layman who doesn't work with degrees on a regular basis they don't mean a right lot. 1 in 5 is easy to interpret with reference to the real world but what about 11 degrees? Is that steep? Did you realise that the 33 degree slope you visualised was around 2 in 3 or 65% (something like double the steepness of any road in the UK)? I think we're right to keep road signs as percentages/ratios rather than angles.
The current preference for percentages is simply harmonisation between countries. It also has the advantage of allowing more values than a simple ratio. For example there is a big gap between 1 in 4 (25%) and 1 in 3 (33%)! Unfortunately quite a lot of modern percentage signs in the UK are just direct conversions of the old ones so we often lose this advantage. In truth I suspect they aren't measured all that accurately in the first place, so maybe the percentage implies greater accuracy than was actually measured
All of these describe the height gained (rise) for each unit of horizontal travel (run) and therefore the gradient or slope of the road. For example your 1 in 3 hill (you do mean 1 in 3 rather than 3 in 1) rises 1 yard for every 3 travelled horizontally. For a 10% hill the height you climb is 10% of the distance you travel horizontally.
Using degrees means thinking in a different way. Instead of the relationship between the rise and run of the slope you are expressing the angle to the horizontal.
Each method has it's own benefits and particular uses. I'm guessing civil engineers building a sloping road would work in degrees. I think that it is more natural for normal road users to think in terms of distances than angles. To a layman who doesn't work with degrees on a regular basis they don't mean a right lot. 1 in 5 is easy to interpret with reference to the real world but what about 11 degrees? Is that steep? Did you realise that the 33 degree slope you visualised was around 2 in 3 or 65% (something like double the steepness of any road in the UK)? I think we're right to keep road signs as percentages/ratios rather than angles.
The current preference for percentages is simply harmonisation between countries. It also has the advantage of allowing more values than a simple ratio. For example there is a big gap between 1 in 4 (25%) and 1 in 3 (33%)! Unfortunately quite a lot of modern percentage signs in the UK are just direct conversions of the old ones so we often lose this advantage. In truth I suspect they aren't measured all that accurately in the first place, so maybe the percentage implies greater accuracy than was actually measured
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
Thanks for clarifying that Bicycler. I'm still finding it difficult to fully interpret the %. It's just my blind spot I guess. 3 in 1 is easy to visualize isn't it? Three steps forward, one step up. The % seems to be so abbreviated that it looses it's meaning, at least to me. I'm used to thinking of %'s as a proportion of a whole. Transposing them to a hill is the difficulty.
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
I prefer it as a ratio as well. I agree that road gradients are more easy to visualise this way. I think that rounding to the nearest convenient "1 in ..." value is accurate enough for most road users' purposes.
One disadvantage of percentages is that people misunderstand them. As you say, it isn't immediately clear what it is a percentage of. IME most people think that 100% is vertical, whereas it is half way (1 in 1, 1:1 or 45 degrees).
That's 1 in 3. 3 in 1 (300% or 71 degrees) would be one step forward, three steps up
One disadvantage of percentages is that people misunderstand them. As you say, it isn't immediately clear what it is a percentage of. IME most people think that 100% is vertical, whereas it is half way (1 in 1, 1:1 or 45 degrees).
CREPELLO wrote:3 in 1 is easy to visualize isn't it? Three steps forward, one step up.
That's 1 in 3. 3 in 1 (300% or 71 degrees) would be one step forward, three steps up
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
Its easy.
0% is a snooker table, and 100% is the side of a house.
0% is a snooker table, and 100% is the side of a house.
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
The confusing thing is though is if you cycle along a flat road for two miles, you've ridden downhill for the first mile and uphill for the second.
If you ride along a road that's level, you don't go up or down hill, but follow the curvature of the Earth.
Half way along the two roads, there is an eight inch difference in their elevations.
Which tells you,,, canal towpaths are NEVER flat.
If you ride along a road that's level, you don't go up or down hill, but follow the curvature of the Earth.
Half way along the two roads, there is an eight inch difference in their elevations.
Which tells you,,, canal towpaths are NEVER flat.
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
Bicycler wrote:One disadvantage of percentages is that people misunderstand them. IME most people think that 100% is vertical, whereas it is half way (1 in 1, 1:1 or 45 degrees).
Ayesha wrote:0% is a snooker table, and 100% is the side of a house.
See
Re: 11 degree or 11%?
Bicycler wrote:CREPELLO wrote:3 in 1 is easy to visualize isn't it? Three steps forward, one step up.
That's 1 in 3. 3 in 1 (300% or 71 degrees) would be one step forward, three steps up
Err, yes. Can you can tell when I last did ratios?
