York 'bad' cycling video

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Tonyf33
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Tonyf33 »

But the motorist has by far the greater responsibility no, especially as in this instance he is crossing the path of another road user, as per the above posts if the vehicle had done the same thing to cross another lane with motor vehicles in it he would been shunted and at fault. That this is a cycle lane makes it no different to the procedure, hazard perception by the licensed vehicle driver and their ultimate repsonsibility...so no, it isn't 50/50 at all..
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661-Pete
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by 661-Pete »

The 'left hook' incident is evidently the most contentious. I'd say, the driver was more at fault, but it's not much use fingering him/her. If the outcome had been worse, i.e. the cyclist had been killed or seriously injured (instead of merely being induced to yell a few pleasantries) then presumably (hopefully) the apportioning of blame would have been tested in court.

But it illustrates well how poorly thought out these painted-on cycle lanes are. They almost seem to invite mistakes - by both parties.
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irc
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by irc »

Tonyf33 wrote:But the motorist has by far the greater responsibility no,


No. All drivers, riders, and cyclists have an equal duty to use reasonable care and attention. In this case both failed to do so. Poor hazard perception by both, both contravening the Highway Code - 50:50.
Ellieb
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Ellieb »

It isn't so much that the cyclist is left hooked, it is the way he is riding: had he had both hands on the bars and shown any awareness of the traffic around him I'd be happy to blame the driver. As it is the guy on the bike is clearly riding 'without due care & attention' (yes I know there is in such offence, but you do have some responsibility for own safety when riding on the road)
kwackers
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by kwackers »

irc wrote:
Tonyf33 wrote:But the motorist has by far the greater responsibility no,


No. All drivers, riders, and cyclists have an equal duty to use reasonable care and attention. In this case both failed to do so. Poor hazard perception by both, both contravening the Highway Code - 50:50.

It isn't 50:50.

If we pull it back to basics the cyclist is travelling at a constant speed in their own lane. The motorist makes a manoeuvre which puts them in conflict, because only one party made the manoeuvre then they're primarily to blame.
To put any blame on the cyclist at all you'd have to prove that they weren't paying attention and had they been doing so then they could have avoided an accident otherwise it's unlikely given what the highway code says you'd get anywhere.

Having said all that, imo its fairly obvious the cyclist could have handled the situation a lot better.
reohn2
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by reohn2 »

I'm seeing a lot of idiots on bikes in the York video linked to by IRC,the cyclist riding up the inside of the Saab whilst it was indicating to turn left was one of them.
I have to ask myself whenever I see these videos,what I would do in the same circumstances,one thing I never do is trust other road users or ride against a signalling vehicle,especially if it's bigger than me.
I very rarely filter up the inside of traffic,cycle lane or not.I have to be absolutely sure the traffic is stopped and has no chance of moving at all and there's no other options,otherwise it's the offside for me everytime and even then it's with extreme caution.
Rights,wrongs,if buts and maybe's,count for nowt as you go under the wheels.
Safety is my responsibility firstly.
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gaz
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by gaz »

661-Pete wrote:...But it illustrates well how poorly thought out these painted-on cycle lanes are. They almost seem to invite mistakes - by both parties.

Yes, it just needed a bit more thought and a bit more paint to make the priorities clear :wink: .
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irc
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by irc »

kwackers wrote:If we pull it back to basics the cyclist is travelling at a constant speed in their own lane. The motorist makes a manoeuvre which puts them in conflict, because only one party made the manoeuvre then they're primarily to blame


Well no. Overtaking is also a manoeuvre. So both were making a manoeuvre without checking it was safe. In fact arguably the cyclist is worse. The driver had to shoulder or mirror check to see the cyclist. The turning car was right in front of the cyclist.
reohn2
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by reohn2 »

irc wrote:
kwackers wrote:Well no. Overtaking is also a manoeuvre. So both were making a manoeuvre without checking it was safe. In fact arguably the cyclist is worse. The driver had to shoulder or mirror check to see the cyclist. The turning car was right in front of the cyclist.


With a flashing indicator clearly visible at about handlebar height,how much warning does it need to say to the cyclist "I'm turning left don't go down the inside"
The cyclist is as thick as two short planks!
The motorist is guilty of not shoulder/mirror checking but primarily the onus is on the cyclist not to put himself in danger,why would anyone undertake an indicating vehicle is completely beyond me,a stupid,stupid,manoeuvre IMO :?
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Psamathe
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Psamathe »

I still think; change the cycle lane to a car lane and make it two cars. Inside lane car does not change speed/direction whilst outside lane car slows indicates and turns left carving up the inside lane car. In that situation the outside lane car would be 110% in the wrong. So why making it a cycle lane and a bike does that make the cyclist in the wrong ?

Ian
kwackers
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by kwackers »

irc wrote:Well no. Overtaking is also a manoeuvre. So both were making a manoeuvre without checking it was safe. In fact arguably the cyclist is worse. The driver had to shoulder or mirror check to see the cyclist. The turning car was right in front of the cyclist.

But he isn't manoeuvring, he's simply travelling at a constant speed in his own lane. The onus as set out by the highway code is for the driver who is changing lane and turning to make sure his path is clear.

You most definitely cannot change lane, or turn across another lane unless your path is clear. At what point did the driver check? He simply turned with the assumption that there couldn't possibly be anything there - after all that lane is too narrow to hold a car isn't it... :wink:
kwackers
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:
irc wrote:
kwackers wrote:Well no. Overtaking is also a manoeuvre. So both were making a manoeuvre without checking it was safe. In fact arguably the cyclist is worse. The driver had to shoulder or mirror check to see the cyclist. The turning car was right in front of the cyclist.


With a flashing indicator clearly visible at about handlebar height,how much warning does it need to say to the cyclist "I'm turning left don't go down the inside"
The cyclist is as thick as two short planks!
The motorist is guilty of not shoulder/mirror checking but primarily the onus is on the cyclist not to put himself in danger,why would anyone undertake an indicating vehicle is completely beyond me,a stupid,stupid,manoeuvre IMO :?

I didn't say that... :wink:

I wouldn't say the cyclist wasn't being stupid - obviously to continue on the inside of a vehicle indicating left is a daft idea - regardless of whether you're in the right.
reohn2
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by reohn2 »

Psamathe wrote:I still think; change the cycle lane to a car lane and make it two cars. Inside lane car does not change speed/direction whilst outside lane car slows indicates and turns left carving up the inside lane car. In that situation the outside lane car would be 110% in the wrong. So why making it a cycle lane and a bike does that make the cyclist in the wrong ?

Ian

The two car scenario wouldn't happen in those circumstances,if ever,which proves how stupid the cycle lane is.
So why trust something that's obviously so stupid?
There's got to be a bit of nous/understanding/roadcraft, in these situations ie;if it's risky don't do it.
Simples.
Whilst some cycle lanes are clearly stupid,unfortunately some folk are all too simples and can't read what's staring them in the face it comes from a lack of thinkology :? .
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reohn2
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:I wouldn't say the cyclist wasn't being stupid - obviously to continue on the inside of a vehicle indicating left is a daft idea - regardless of whether you're in the right.

Exactly!
And should the worst have happened the cyclist would've been just as dead whether right or wrong.
The motorist at worst would've collected a few scratches on his shiney paintwork,and possibly a fine and a few points on his licence.

Some are arguing right and wrong.
I'm arguing survival in a country that couldn't give a toss for law and order or cyclists,but leans toward the might is right approach to road safety.
With that backdrop why do something that is never going to be a winning move even if it is lawful?
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reohn2
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by reohn2 »

BTW,what about 'always give way to traffic merging from the right'
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