York 'bad' cycling video

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irc
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by irc »

Bogalvator wrote:If the car was indicating (I can't tell personally) then the cyclist has to take some responsibility for that incident. It would not have been difficult to anticipate what would happen; slowing down and giving way would have been the sensible and courteous thing in my view.


It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to deduce that a car passing a junction (whether signalling or not) may turn left. So delaying the undertake for 2 or 3 seconds until the car is passed the junction is prudent.

Bogalvator wrote:If the car was indicating (I can't tell personally) then the cyclist has to take some responsibility for that incident. It would not have been difficult to anticipate what would happen; slowing down and giving way would have been the sensible and courteous thing in my view.


There was a case years ago in Scotland when minor bad driving still went to court where a driver overtook another vehicle which was signalling right. Both were convicted of careless driving. I'd put this case pretty much 50:50. The car driver should have checked before his turn and the cyclist should not have undertaken a vehicle signalling left at a junction.
beardy
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by beardy »

and the cyclist should not have undertaken a vehicle


I would not call it undertaking when you are in a separate marked lane.
A bus has the right to such an "undertaking" in a bus lane.
Psamathe
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Psamathe »

beardy wrote:
and the cyclist should not have undertaken a vehicle


I would not call it undertaking when you are in a separate marked lane.
A bus has the right to such an "undertaking" in a bus lane.


Also, the car would have slowed (probably significantly) as it approached its intended turn. So some distance back, everybody travelling at steady speed and suddenly the vehicle in the outside lane slows ... That does not automatically mean that all inside lane traffic has to slow as well ('cos if it did most cities would never move) and there would be no point in having e.g. a bus lane (i.e. with outside lane stationary, bus lane clear yet bus cannot move forward because it would mean "undertaking").

Ian
Tonyf33
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Tonyf33 »

Putting your indicator on doesn't all of a sudden give you an automatic right of way to manoeuvre, in fact the HC is pretty clear on this situation.

"151In slow-moving traffic. You should
be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side."


And whilst this is for changing lanes it is appropriate in this instance
"133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over"


It is also pretty clear to me that the car driver was wholly in the wrong and that the cyclist whilst not having both hands on the bars was still alert enough to get out of trouble.
I'd also say that the indicator is not clear on my 22" HD screen either and probably isn't easily in view of the cyclist, certainly you'd expect as a bare minimum that someone turning across a designated lane should be looking to see if that lane is clear, wouldn't you? IF NOT, WHY NOT?
Last edited by Tonyf33 on 11 Apr 2014, 12:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
rfryer
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by rfryer »

Bicycler wrote:I agree both with the people who suggest that cyclist in a lane have priority over traffic turning across their path (this is only the reverse of the situation where you are turning right from a cycle lane across the general traffic lane) and those who say they should have seen it coming. I think I have mentioned before how it is not a good idea to design a system whereby left-turning traffic has to do so across a lane on their inside. Ideally the law should allow for (and the HC should encourage) left turning motors to enter the cycle lane. The problem there is that cycle lanes are too narrow and positioned In the gutter so in many cases there will still be a lane on the inside of turning vehicles

I'd not thought of this, but I completely agree. Other vehicles should have to enter an inside lane before turning left.
Mark1978
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Mark1978 »

As I understand it this is the correct method and one which is taught in advanced driving, i.e. enter the cycle lane before turning left, it's much the same as cyclists taking primary, you're preventing overtakes at a point where they would be dangerous.
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661-Pete
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by 661-Pete »

Returning to the matter of the video as a whole, rather than analysing specific incidents in it:

Here is a further appraisal of the impact of the video, from the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... mentpage=1

Is this fair comment? I think so. I honestly have no idea how to tackle the bad cycling image problem, but videos like this don't seem to be helping much...

(OK, read the comments below the article if you must. The usual mixture...)
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
mrjemm
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by mrjemm »

I started reading that earlier, Pete. I gave up and moved onto the comments. I thought there was a higher level of trolling than usual, but I think generally there is at the moment a raised occurrence of antipathy towards cyclists, perhaps down to the improving weather bringing more and more out of the woodwork. Possibly with all the UKIP news coverage and blether about immigrants in the news, etc., 'average Joe' is feeling justified and wants to rant about anything that 'gets his goat' (or grinds his gears, if you watch Family Guy).

The other post in Bike Blog, regarding the good things about cycling is far nicer to read, if a bit fluffy.
kwackers
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by kwackers »

I'd say it was fair comment. I don't have any real problem with naming and shaming bad drivers/cyclists/litter throwers/dog botherers etc but IMO that video is scraping the barrel, most of those barely register on a scale of badness.
rfryer
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by rfryer »

Mark1978 wrote:As I understand it this is the correct method and one which is taught in advanced driving, i.e. enter the cycle lane before turning left, it's much the same as cyclists taking primary, you're preventing overtakes at a point where they would be dangerous.

Interesting. The highway code (rule 140) says "You MUST NOT drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation. Do noy drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a broken white line unless it is unavoidable." I'd be happy to classify preparation for a left turn as an unavoidable incursion into the latter type of lane.
Psamathe
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Psamathe »

kwackers wrote:... but IMO that video is scraping the barrel, most of those barely register on a scale of badness.


I would agree. There seemed to be quite a lot of "wrong way down a one-way street". My initial reaction was that whilst it was wrong, I don't remember any incidents with cars filmed and then, in some European countries I understood this was allowed (in some areas ? with some restrictions ?). But when you compare that to a car turning left trying to crush a cyclist under his/her wheels ... despite the cyclist using a cycle lane.

When cycling narrow single track country lanes often with high banks both sides I will sometimes cycle wrong side of the road round a bend to improve visibility (to see any oncoming traffic sooner). I'm sure the Highway Code says you should stick to the left but I'd rather see an oncoming vehicle sooner, have them see me sooner (and I can either move back to the left or, in practice, it's a single track road so one of us has to pull in somewhere). Wrong but I don't expect to end-up in prison for it.

Ian
kwackers
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by kwackers »

rfryer wrote:Interesting. The highway code (rule 140) says "You MUST NOT drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation. Do noy drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a broken white line unless it is unavoidable." I'd be happy to classify preparation for a left turn as an unavoidable incursion into the latter type of lane.

Highway Code Rule 183 wrote:"keep as close to the left as is safe and practicable. Give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction."


I think you're taking the word "unavoidable" too literally. Turning left into the path of another vehicle is easily avoidable. Imagine you were in your car in the right hand lane and decided to turn left, so you indicate and turn left only to be hit by a vehicle travelling in the left hand lane. You could hardly argue that you had no choice since the manoeuvre was "unavoidable".

In short you might not be able to avoid driving over the cycle lane to turn left but you can avoid driving over the cyclist. :wink:
Bicycler
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by Bicycler »

What I was proposing is not to give motors the right to cut up cyclists travelling along cycle lanes, but to allow them to enter it prior to turning as they would a general traffic lane. If you are travelling in the outside lane of a multiple lane road and want to turn left you do not have priority over the inside lane and cannot just change into it without looking but nor do you remain in the outside lane whilst slowing to a near or complete stop making sure the road you're turning into is clear and making the turn. That is just asking something to come up the inside. It makes complete sense to allow vehicles to check the lane is clear and move left prior to their turn.
rfryer
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by rfryer »

kwackers wrote:
rfryer wrote:Interesting. The highway code (rule 140) says "You MUST NOT drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation. Do noy drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a broken white line unless it is unavoidable." I'd be happy to classify preparation for a left turn as an unavoidable incursion into the latter type of lane.

Highway Code Rule 183 wrote:"keep as close to the left as is safe and practicable. Give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction."

I think you're taking the word "unavoidable" too literally. Turning left into the path of another vehicle is easily avoidable. Imagine you were in your car in the right hand lane and decided to turn left, so you indicate and turn left only to be hit by a vehicle travelling in the left hand lane. You could hardly argue that you had no choice since the manoeuvre was "unavoidable".

Very true. I'm not saying that crushing the cyclist was unavoidable. I am saying that, in order to avoid that happening, an early, controlled move into the cycle lane is sensible, and can be justified on the grounds on unavoidability.

Edit: Looks like Bicyclist beat me to this point!
For example, imagine you wanted to turn left off a dual carriageway, and were in the outside lane as you came abreast of the junction. Personally, I would simply abort the manoeuvre - it's daft to try and turn off a multi-lane road from anywhere other than the inside lane. I think the same applies to roads bordered by cycle lanes with broken white lines.

Following this logic, it means that the cyclist being left-hooked in the video is entirely in the right, which is a complete volte-face as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, this doesn't help with feeder lines into ASL boxes. The final part of the feeder tends to be protected by a solid line, so cars shouldn't block it. The consequence is that motorists can't start the left turn until they enter the ASL, which really means they should sit tight until the left hand side is clear.
irc
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Re: York 'bad' cycling video

Post by irc »

Tonyf33 wrote:Putting your indicator on doesn't all of a sudden give you an automatic right of way to manoeuvre, in fact the HC is pretty clear on this situation.

"151In slow-moving traffic. You should
be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side."


And whilst this is for changing lanes it is appropriate in this instance
"133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over"
I


The Highway Code also says

167
DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example

approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road


It's a 50:50. Driver and cyclist both at fault.
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