From experience it seems the Police are unlikely to go for a prosecution over on-road activity without being provided with the offenders identity and a witness.
I witnessed an event some time ago and reported it to the Police. I saw a passenger deliberately assault somebody from a moving car, I concentrated totally on getting the number plate. So I stopped and had trouble holding the number plate in my mind at the same time as getting it into my phone, which is very difficult for me as I dont "do" mobile phones except as MP3 players and alarm clocks.
So by the time I had transferred the number plate which I had definitely got right into the phone, I wsnt sure if I had corrupted it.
Next I put a Waypoint on my GPS to mark exact location and time of the incident (except for a few minutes playing around). As I dont "do" phones, I rode on to the Police station which I was passing anyway which was about 40 minutes later. I possibly should have used the phone and they could have caught the car but I just expected to get fobbed off as always.
At the Police station I make a report and they ask me the colour of the car, the colour doesnt match the registration, so already my brain has created an answer to what I had not remembered. I had not offered to supply a car colour, it was asked of me. So then I suggest the number plate could have a letter wrong but also I could very easily have the colour wrong as I was totally concentrating on the number plate.
So the Officer makes his apologies saying there are two big problems, a partial index (as they call number plates) and that the incident was committed by the passenger not the driver, so if the driver doesnt talk they cant get the passenger. So it probably will not be enough to catch them.
He says he will go through some CCTV stuff and I leave and decide best to forget about the whole thing. They do notify all cars to try and stop the car with the plate I gave if they see it but it is really too late for that.
Well now, a considerable time after the event, they are asking the driver into the station for questioning and I have to go and make a witness statement.
I have a problem and I have a poor memory and we all know the tricks of the mind when recalling events. What I have to say with certainty is very small, there was a car whose plate I took, the window was open on the passenger side, the passenger did something (I am not naming what) through the window to somebody, those things are certain because they were noteworthy and unusual.
Any other details like car colour, type, clothes exactly what sort of noise the passenger made (was it a yell, a cry, a jeer, a laugh or a roar, I dont know). Were there any other cars not in our immediate vicinity, was it sunny or shady? However my brain is willing to offer suggestions like it did the car colour.
So when I go to give the witness statement, how to I deal with this?
So many of these events get nowhere because nobody has the drill of getting the plate number, I got the number but little else.
Credible Witness Statements.
Credible Witness Statements.
Yma o Hyd
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
Without knowing anything about legal process, etc. and having no experience on which to base my comments:
You can only do what you can do. If it were me I would be absolutely honest (to the Police/Authorities) and avoid discussing anything with the accused (or their representatives). I would be completely open with the Police/Authorities and explain your position and why you can/cannot recall things.
And, without knowing the offence and whatever the outcome, I suspect an important aspect has already been achieved when the Police called in the driver and probably scared him/her; meaning he/she may try to control their passengers next time.
I am something of a cynic and so often you hear about some quite nasty offences where the offender is released without punishment on the basis it is only their 18th offence, etc. Not to say I'm "send 'em all to prison for life", but so often you hear about people found guilty of something and getting no (or trivial) punishment.
Ian
You can only do what you can do. If it were me I would be absolutely honest (to the Police/Authorities) and avoid discussing anything with the accused (or their representatives). I would be completely open with the Police/Authorities and explain your position and why you can/cannot recall things.
And, without knowing the offence and whatever the outcome, I suspect an important aspect has already been achieved when the Police called in the driver and probably scared him/her; meaning he/she may try to control their passengers next time.
I am something of a cynic and so often you hear about some quite nasty offences where the offender is released without punishment on the basis it is only their 18th offence, etc. Not to say I'm "send 'em all to prison for life", but so often you hear about people found guilty of something and getting no (or trivial) punishment.
Ian
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
We are talking minor here. However it was with intent and to a victim by people in broad daylight driving a car with a number plate on. My feeling is that it would have been part of a string of such events and I was thinking if more than one gets reported it will go somewhere and in order for there to be more than one report, I would have to be one of the somebodies reporting it.
They could be very thick or they could have learned that you can do what you like as nothing ever happens. We all know that nothing ever happens because of a lack of witnesses stepping forward.
The incident in itself may not justify the Police time but the alternative is that no laws short of GBH actually exist unless personally witnessed by a Police Officer.
They could be very thick or they could have learned that you can do what you like as nothing ever happens. We all know that nothing ever happens because of a lack of witnesses stepping forward.
The incident in itself may not justify the Police time but the alternative is that no laws short of GBH actually exist unless personally witnessed by a Police Officer.
Yma o Hyd
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
meic, all you can do is your best. And be honest. It may help if you can say, for example, that you were more certain about the registration than the colour, or vice versa. Some things, they will not expect you to remember after so long a period of time.
It may be worth writing down now, what you do remember, to avoid losing anymore of the detail, in case that is likely.
A couple of years ago, I offered my details to someone who was involved in an incident. After a couple of months, I threw away the scrap of paper on which I had written the location, time of day, and registration of the offending vehicle. About two weeks after I threw away the scrap of paper, an insurance company contacted me, requesting all of the details of the incident
So, I have in mind to stop immediately and take note of any and all details, or take pictures, if possible in the future. And keep them until I am certain no one wants them.
Good luck with it. I hope that your witness helps.
It may be worth writing down now, what you do remember, to avoid losing anymore of the detail, in case that is likely.
A couple of years ago, I offered my details to someone who was involved in an incident. After a couple of months, I threw away the scrap of paper on which I had written the location, time of day, and registration of the offending vehicle. About two weeks after I threw away the scrap of paper, an insurance company contacted me, requesting all of the details of the incident
So, I have in mind to stop immediately and take note of any and all details, or take pictures, if possible in the future. And keep them until I am certain no one wants them.
Good luck with it. I hope that your witness helps.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
The above is absolutely true, you can only do what you can.
On the bright side, no matter what happens, this guy is having his card well and truly marked
On the bright side, no matter what happens, this guy is having his card well and truly marked
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
Eyewitness statements never match in every detail. If one witness has a good recollection then it might only need the main points corroborated. Just be honest and specify what you are sure of and what you believe but are less than certain of.
Whatever happens at least the driver and his passenger will have learnt that attacking a cyclists isn't a free ride.
Whatever happens at least the driver and his passenger will have learnt that attacking a cyclists isn't a free ride.
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Elizabethsdad
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: 15 Jan 2011, 7:09pm
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
As the victim of a miscarriage of justice based solely on eye-witness testimony I personally think it should never be relied upon.
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
Just answer the questions and if you can't answer then say so.
You might feel bad about not being able to give much information to the police, but there could well be others also giving a little information on this vehicle and taken together the police may have enough to take action against the perpetrator or driver.
Well done to you for trying to assist!
You might feel bad about not being able to give much information to the police, but there could well be others also giving a little information on this vehicle and taken together the police may have enough to take action against the perpetrator or driver.
Well done to you for trying to assist!
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36778
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
It's a useful practice to write a complete summary of anything that happens which you might need to recall later. Ideally, it should be in chronological order, but that doesn't matter, and starting off by noting things like a car reg, colour and anything else like that before starting the summary is the best way to have a chance of getting those details right.
Our legal system recognises the value of notes made at the time or shortly after an event in assisting witnesses to remember what they witnessed. Remember that these days, cases can take years to resove. A court hearing is not a test of the memory but rather consideration of the truthfulness of a witness's evidence. If a report of something is made to the police, I'd recommend offering them any such notes, which should then be referred to in any witness statement you make. The rules of evidence are complicated and this can frighten some officers into a fob off. There used to be all sorts of problems with the "best evidence rule" which generally only allowed original evidence to be admitted so a reg number scrawled in biro on the palm of your hand might lead to wrangling, but all that's for the authorities to worry about.
If there's anything you are unsure of or cannot remember, say so.
It is true that the power of the police to require information about offenders in vehicles is restricted to the ID of the driver and only certain traffic offences. OTOH, I've posted more than once that there's a power to warn the users of a motor vehicle used for what I'll term anti-social behaviour which can, ultimately lead to the vehicle being seized. I presume that is was enacted to overcome problems such as these.
Our legal system recognises the value of notes made at the time or shortly after an event in assisting witnesses to remember what they witnessed. Remember that these days, cases can take years to resove. A court hearing is not a test of the memory but rather consideration of the truthfulness of a witness's evidence. If a report of something is made to the police, I'd recommend offering them any such notes, which should then be referred to in any witness statement you make. The rules of evidence are complicated and this can frighten some officers into a fob off. There used to be all sorts of problems with the "best evidence rule" which generally only allowed original evidence to be admitted so a reg number scrawled in biro on the palm of your hand might lead to wrangling, but all that's for the authorities to worry about.
If there's anything you are unsure of or cannot remember, say so.
It is true that the power of the police to require information about offenders in vehicles is restricted to the ID of the driver and only certain traffic offences. OTOH, I've posted more than once that there's a power to warn the users of a motor vehicle used for what I'll term anti-social behaviour which can, ultimately lead to the vehicle being seized. I presume that is was enacted to overcome problems such as these.
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
One of the advantages of a helmet camera is having something to look back on to help remember what actually happened.
When the adrenalines pumping it can be hard to remember "to remember".
When the adrenalines pumping it can be hard to remember "to remember".
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36778
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
I think camera footage can be excellent evidence, but I'd recommend being completely truthful about what was observed and remembered, and what has been gathered from the footage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying in evidence "I recorded this on a camcorder and from that I have seen that the reg of the vehicle was ABC 123." If a case is contested, a claim that the number was remembered from the outset might easily be the subject of a teeny-weeny question in cross-examination. It would be easy to be exposed as a liar when the reg wasn't in doubt.
A little reminiscence from my youth. I went to court with a young man who pleaded guilty to all sorts of naughty things including using his late father's driving licence, altering the "producer" I'd issued in the hope that he'd get away with no MOT, and various other traffic matters including an untaxed vehicle. At court, the paperwork about the back duty owing was missing: pre Swansea, vehicle excise was handled by the local authority, but the claim for the back duty was tagged onto any prosecution by the police. There was a record in my duty book - a note "made at the time" - of all the details of the tax disc. Into the box, sworn in and asked to give that info in evidence. When I asked to be allowed to refer to my duty book, a very pompous beak chimed in with the old "Come, come, officer. Can't you remember even simple facts?" Or words to that effect. That's fair enough if somebody cannot give an account of things they claim to have seen happening but it's absurd to expect somebody to remember all the uncontested details of a tax disc. The prosecutor should have come to my rescue but in the end I was grudgingly allowed to read this from my note. My reason for raising this here is that had I simply rattled off "The licence was number 5/00047634 issued on 27 May, 1968 at Hunslet Post Office and expiring end of September 1968, to motor car ABC 123, taxation class, under 12 hp etc" I cannot imagine anybody would have believed that I had remembered it from the time of the incident, rather than committing it to memory later. In the event, the defendant then gave evidence as to why he should not have to repay the back duty and when cross-examined admitted he was lying about when he had acquired the vehicle. We ended up with the magistrates' clerk standing up and sternly warning him about the penalties for lying on oath. A bread-and-butter traffic case turned into a mini drama.
A little reminiscence from my youth. I went to court with a young man who pleaded guilty to all sorts of naughty things including using his late father's driving licence, altering the "producer" I'd issued in the hope that he'd get away with no MOT, and various other traffic matters including an untaxed vehicle. At court, the paperwork about the back duty owing was missing: pre Swansea, vehicle excise was handled by the local authority, but the claim for the back duty was tagged onto any prosecution by the police. There was a record in my duty book - a note "made at the time" - of all the details of the tax disc. Into the box, sworn in and asked to give that info in evidence. When I asked to be allowed to refer to my duty book, a very pompous beak chimed in with the old "Come, come, officer. Can't you remember even simple facts?" Or words to that effect. That's fair enough if somebody cannot give an account of things they claim to have seen happening but it's absurd to expect somebody to remember all the uncontested details of a tax disc. The prosecutor should have come to my rescue but in the end I was grudgingly allowed to read this from my note. My reason for raising this here is that had I simply rattled off "The licence was number 5/00047634 issued on 27 May, 1968 at Hunslet Post Office and expiring end of September 1968, to motor car ABC 123, taxation class, under 12 hp etc" I cannot imagine anybody would have believed that I had remembered it from the time of the incident, rather than committing it to memory later. In the event, the defendant then gave evidence as to why he should not have to repay the back duty and when cross-examined admitted he was lying about when he had acquired the vehicle. We ended up with the magistrates' clerk standing up and sternly warning him about the penalties for lying on oath. A bread-and-butter traffic case turned into a mini drama.
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
In case of the very very unlikely event that this would actually lead to anything, I slightly altered the scenario so it wouldnt be recognised by any body doing a Google search when the Police knocked on the door.
It was me that they threw the eggs at rather than somebody else.
I have had the final phonecall from the Police Officer looking into the event, saying that it is over.
The driver didnt admit it and was able to use the delay to say he couldnt remember who was in the car way back then when it happened. Denies any knowledge of the incident, my word against his, no further action.
On the positive side, he had failed to attend the requested Police interviews and been leaned on a bit.
He is now aware that even if he doesnt get prosecuted he does get hassled and hopefully he might think it will be hard to get away with it twice.
On the negative side, it shows that if you are willing to tell the Police bare faced lies, they will generally give up and go away nowadays. As mentioned up thread it is possible that many of them know that all too well.
It was me that they threw the eggs at rather than somebody else.
I have had the final phonecall from the Police Officer looking into the event, saying that it is over.
The driver didnt admit it and was able to use the delay to say he couldnt remember who was in the car way back then when it happened. Denies any knowledge of the incident, my word against his, no further action.
On the positive side, he had failed to attend the requested Police interviews and been leaned on a bit.
He is now aware that even if he doesnt get prosecuted he does get hassled and hopefully he might think it will be hard to get away with it twice.
On the negative side, it shows that if you are willing to tell the Police bare faced lies, they will generally give up and go away nowadays. As mentioned up thread it is possible that many of them know that all too well.
Yma o Hyd
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axel_knutt
- Posts: 2918
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
I once watched the bus in front of me stove in the side of a parked car, I don't think he was aware that he had done it. I memorised the bus registration and then dashed into the adjacent Post Office and asked for a pen to write it down along with the car number. After I rang the police with the numbers I sat and wrote an account of the incident before I forgot the details, and then took it up to the cop shop for the car owner.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Bonefishblues
- Posts: 11038
- Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
- Location: Near Bicester Oxon
Re: Credible Witness Statements.
meic wrote:
On the negative side, it shows that if you are willing to tell the Police bare faced lies, they will generally give up and go away nowadays. As mentioned up thread it is possible that many of them know that all too well.
Trouble is that the Police know that the decision to prosecute lies with the CPS and there has to be a reasonable prospect of conviction for a case to proceed. In this scenario that's highly unlikely, so it's more a question of when it was dropped, not if (in the absence of a confession).
It doesn't make it right, I hasten to say. Someone tried it on re my wife many years ago, by reporting that their accident was down to her driving. She wasn't even aware of an accident, never mind caused one, and the allegation went no further.