Why Are We So Far Behind....

[Jughead]

...the Dutch, Norwegians et al in terms of cycling infrastructure? What happened for them to invest in providing for cyclists and we didn't. Why did we go a different route?

[eileithyia]

Has been posted here before, it was not always so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

[reohn2]

TBH,it's because most continental countries don't suffer the arrogance and outright stupitity of the British,they see the bike for what it is,a very useful tool and a pleasant and social way to travel short journeys at a relaxed pace and so provide for that healthy option in law and by providing good useful facilities.
There's a very active and arrogant class system in operation within UK society where you are what you have and where bigger=better,the bicycle is at the bottom of that system.
The bicycle is looked down on by most as a poorman's transport also people dissuade themselves from cycling in the belief that it's also a very dangerous activity,that needs lots of safety equipment almost akin to mountaineering and so anyone participating must either have no other choice,or are mad,add to that the rightwing press spouting that cyclists are also bad,terming them as lawbreaking 'lycra louts' etc.
Against that backdrop we'll drive on choked up roads to take children less than a mile to school or drive five miles or less to work by the same mode.
We'll construct ideas that cyclists are free loading parasites that don't pay their way on the roads,a fallacy of course,but prevalent nevertheless.
Politrickians national and local,pay lip service to cycling whilst doing nothing in reality and providing p*** poor farcilities for these mad and poor people.
Take a look at the resignation of the pro Bedford turbo roundabout thread posters who know in the hearts it's a sell out but insist on putting a brave face on it
We live in a dog eat dog society where bullying is the norm rather than the exception and is played out on the roads daily.
I could go on but it's becoming an evermore depressing and sad tale of careless and anticycling/social society ..............

EDITED for typos.

[PDQ]

TBH,it's because most continental countries don't suffer the arrogance and outright stupitity of the British,they see the bike for what it is,a very useful tool and a pleasant and social way to travel short journeys at a relaxed pace and so provide for that healthy option in law and by providing good useful facilities.

FWIW I agree and with the whole post too.

Might be a good reason not to vote for the Murdoch promoted UKIP.

I saw a TV interview yesterday in which Mr Farage stated he was thinking of applying for Swiss nationality!
Before or after he has achieved division here I wondered.
I like the fact that within the EU things have to be debated and that isn't an always easy option with so many diverse cultures languages etc.
IMHO Europe is the most favourable place in the world to live as a consequence, and I include the UK in that.
Better than our "dreadful public school antics" parliament.

[sirmy]

Because we live in a "low tax economy" where successive governments have vied with each other to cut spending to ther point where nothing much works anymore

[reohn2]

Might be a good reason not to vote for the Murdoch promoted UKIP.

I rather cut off my legs with a blunt hacksaw.

I saw a TV interview yesterday in which Mr Farage stated he was thinking of applying for Swiss nationality!
Before or after he has achieved division here I wondered.

It hardly matters the division is already here for all to see.
Farage's party is just providing a way for a sick society to demonise anyone who who wishes for a more equal and social society and outlook.
He's one sick individual with a bunch of sick followers,the other main three aren't much better either,it's a matter of the devil and the deep blue sea.
For the first time at a general election I'll be thinking of spoiling my paper.

I like the fact that within the EU things have to be debated and that isn't an always easy option with so many diverse cultures languages etc.
IMHO Europe is the most favourable place in the world to live as a consequence,

Agreed.

and I include the UK in that.

?

Better than our "dreadful public school antics" parliament.

That make a great job of doing sweet FA for anyone other than the multinational companies that own it.Guy Fawkes had a good idea,shame really.............

[thirdcrank]

I think there's also the point that nobody, least of all UK cycle campaigners, really anticipated the eventual extent of the increase in motor transport. I think it's CJ who has pointed out that an earlier generation of campaigners believed that the construction of segregated facilities for motor traffic, AKA motorways, would reduce motor traffic levels on the rest of the network. There has always been the fear of cyclists' "Right to Ride" being eroded by the provision of what we've come to call farcilities.

We'll never really know what might have been, except to say that where substantial separate public provision for cyclists has been made in the UK, regardless of any opposition, eg Milton Keynes (network of cycle routes) A 64 Tadcaster to Malton, cycle tracks alongside a dual carriageway, it's confirmed the fears of those campaigners. (Steady Rider: I know you disagree with me so I''ll record that here. )

I think there are other things besides infrastructure, especially attitudes and the organisation of society. I doubt if cyclists will ever prosper in a society brought up to believe that "The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them high and lowly, And ordered their estate" is the normal sate of things, even if religious faith has declined and the churches have dropped that verse from their hymnbooks. Our society is still divided along class lines.

[[XAP]Bob]

Because we accept the slaughter, the dutch protested it in the 60s

[Mark1978]

The 1960s was a turning point for transport. Recovered from the war a country had to decide to embrace the car or control it's growth and encourage other modes.

In the UK we went all in for car everything

[mjr]

We'll never really know what might have been, except to say that where substantial separate public provision for cyclists has been made in the UK, regardless of any opposition, eg Milton Keynes (network of cycle routes) A 64 Tadcaster to Malton, cycle tracks alongside a dual carriageway, it's confirmed the fears of those campaigners. (Steady Rider: I know you disagree with me so I''ll record that here. )

I also disagree with that - at least the bit of it that I know. In Milton Keynes, far from eroding the right to ride on the road, roads are vital links in parts of the redway network. OK, it's not like the Sustrans network where more is on-road than off, but it still wouldn't work without riding on roads, especially around the pre-MK towns. There are also surprisingly many riders on the kilometre grid roads still, including at least one paralympian (hand-cyclist I think) in the 1990s who attracted police attention until they were reminded that speed limits only apply to motor vehicles... Finally, there are the nasty cycle lanes marked along the narrow shoulders of the motorway-style A5 through the city, which few people use... but basically when the city fathers visibly direct cyclists along its biggest dual carriageway, I think there are few who don't think you've the right to ride on all the roads if you want... but who wants to if there's a 90%-decent redway nearby? I never did.

Getting back to the original point, I've wondered this. What's the difference? What should we do?

It's easy to see the Netherlands "stop murdering children" campaign as a turning point there, but I've found no similarly-strong single point with Denmark so far. There have been incidents, like the oil crisis (North Sea Oil is probably a difference, postponing our car dependency crisis) or attempts to build motorways over Copenhagen's lakes, which seem to have tested and strengthened the resolve. It just seems to be a combination of many small measures which have created and then perpetuated a critical mass of cycling... plus maybe some cultural differences with a less confrontational style of government.

A lot of Danish-style small measures are quite do-able. Personally I think space4cycling is a good start at six of those and I wish it well. The culture and government style are going to be more difficult, but maybe they will come. I'll certainly do what I can to try.

[reohn2]

The 1960s was a turning point for transport. Recovered from the war a country had to decide to embrace the car or control it's growth and encourage other modes.

In the UK we went all in for car everything

Classically the UK looked the wrong way(west instead of east)and wanted to be like big brother(USA),what a mistake that turned out to be.
I once read an article that put forward a possibility why the continental countries regard the bicycle with so much reverence.
The theory was that all the European countries except the UK have at sometime during the 20 century been occupied by invading armies.
The first thing that a motorised occupying force does is take all the petrol and diesel for it's own use also restricts it's use which in turn restricts travel,even locally,bear in mind that most of the European countries are much bigger than the UK but with similar sized or smaller populations,so the car/small truck and public transport were a necessity especially for the (mostly) rural economy.
The default transport became the bicycle,which was used extensively not only as a means of transport but as a vehicle of resistance to the occupiers.
The article's writer proposed that the bicycle's worth went so deep into the human psyche of those countries that it still hasn't left them and it's true worth has always been realised,it seems those feelings are still apparent by subsequent generations.
Occupation is a great leveller and such a class system that is so prevalent in UK may have been quashed by the jackboot,who knows?

[andrewk]

Because we live in a "low tax economy" where successive governments have vied with each other to cut spending to ther point where nothing much works anymore

The UK is NOT a low tax country, high rates of IT starting at low thresholds, NI (IT by another name), CGT, very high IHT starting from an absurdly low base, high stamp duty, fuel duty, VAT, council tax etc. etc.
This country is a high tax country and suffers for it.

But, what do tax levels have to do with provision of pro cycling environments.

[JamesE]

This country is a high tax country and suffers for it.

No. UK workers have the fourth-lowest tax burden* in the EU. Meanwhile the US superficially appears to have lower taxes than the EU but that mostly disappears once you factor in the eye-watering cost of private healthcare.

*their phrase, not mine. I see taxes as the price tag for civilisation.

[thirdcrank]

Meanwhile, back at the thread title, I'll suggest we are not behind: we've travelled a similar distance down a different route.

[andrewk]

JamesE don't be misled by the headline comparative IT rates, it is just one of many taxes, overall the UK is not a low tax environment.