I Hate Virgin Trains

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john4703
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by john4703 »

I have often wondered why rail fares are not a flat rate for perhaps any distance up to 20km (this would make it possible to pay for very short journeys) then a fixed rate per km after that but with discounts for early purchase. Maybe pay 75% if booked more than a week in advance and 50% if more than 6 weeks in advance. Advance booking must make it easier for the companies to plan the right number of carriages etc
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mjr
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by mjr »

john4703 wrote:Advance booking must make it easier for the companies to plan the right number of carriages etc

At least, it should, but rolling stock orders seem to be effectively regulated by the government these days and everything seems to be fixed-formation multiple units. Even the few locomotive-hauled services like the Great Eastern Main Line seem to be run as if they were multiple units. The only flexibility seems to be in a few places where there are small units that appear to be joined/split/replaced if absolutely needed, such as the Diesel Multiple Units around Bristol. Anyone know what's the point of Advance fares in this scenario? Just making the railway cashflow easier?
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Bicycler
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Bicycler »

Offering cheaper tickets on less popular services allows them to attract more people onto trains at times where they are normally running below capacity. The lower prices may draw people away from busy peak trains which is helpful because (as you say) there is a national shortage of rolling stock and problems with infrastructure which mean it isn't so easy to just put extra carriages or trains on for a couple of journeys a day. Advance fares allow train companies to compete with coach travel and domestic flights, where similar discounts are available for those booking early.
Last edited by Bicycler on 11 Nov 2014, 9:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

I think the point is what someone once called "Windows Syndrome". Windows is/was available in a bewildering variety of versions: Basic, Home Premium, Home Office, Professional, etc. etc. etc. All of these basically do the same: it's not like it costs Microsoft much more to produce Professional than Basic. (I think someone disassembled them once and found that there was no difference - the code on the CD was exactly the same, it just activated different bits depending what serial number you punched in.)

But what this means is that Microsoft can sell Windows for £50 to the bloke who can afford to pay £50, and for £300 to the company who can afford to pay £300. They're not turning money away. Advance fares are a lot like that - the train company can sell the same seat for £200 or £20, and they get the maximum possible income up until the time that the train is full. Then, and only then, they start dialling back the availability of Advance fares on that service.

What's particularly interesting is when this goes wrong. FirstGroup's bid for West Coast, I believe, made the case that Virgin's extreme price-setting strategy had been counterproductive: by selling the same tickets for £30 and £300, they argued, Virgin were putting off a lot of people who'd be prepared to pay (say) £150 for a walk-up-and-go ticket. (Certainly I know one person who was put off using the train almost for good by Virgin's Manchester-London prices, though "the plural of anecdote is not data" and all that.) So the briefly successful FirstGroup bid would have seen a reduction in the prices of several turn-up-and-go tickets, and yet envisaged an increase in revenue from this.
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Bicycler
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Bicycler »

I think you are right about that. IMO they definitely need to look at the ridiculous Anytime fares for long journeys. It's fully believable that a lot of people are put off making long journeys because of excessive peak walk up fares. In reality overcrowding is not caused by those taking long journeys but by peak commuter flows. Putting a silly £300 fare on a journey has a negligible affect upon reducing the overcrowding of trains but may well deprive train companies of significant amounts of revenue from those travelling greater distances.
Last edited by Bicycler on 11 Nov 2014, 9:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
TonyR
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by TonyR »

MikeF wrote:The much criticised privatisation of the UK railways copied the much acclaimed privatisation of the Japanese railways. Go figure.

But the cost of rail travel in Japan is a fraction of that in the UK, and there aren't multiple prices for the same journey. [/quote]

Not true. The fares are based on speed. You want to get there quicker, you pay more.....much more. And fares are more expensive, not cheaper, than the UK.
Flinders
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Flinders »

TonyR wrote:
MikeF wrote:The much criticised privatisation of the UK railways copied the much acclaimed privatisation of the Japanese railways. Go figure.

But the cost of rail travel in Japan is a fraction of that in the UK, and there aren't multiple prices for the same journey.


Not true. The fares are based on speed. You want to get there quicker, you pay more.....much more. And fares are more expensive, not cheaper, than the UK
.[/quote]




Relative to income?
iviehoff
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by iviehoff »

Bicycler wrote:I think you are right about that. IMO they definitely need to look at the ridiculous Anytime fares for long journeys. It's fully believable that a lot of people are put off making long journeys because of excessive peak walk up fares. In reality overcrowding is not caused by those taking long journeys but by peak commuter flows. Putting a silly £300 fare on a journey has a negligible affect upon reducing the overcrowding of trains but may well deprive train companies of significant amounts of revenue from those travelling greater distances.

The peak time Virgin Trains journeys you have to pay full fare on are not overcrowded, quite the reverse - average load factor is about 55% I read recently - except for about 10% of peak departures where demand is hugely above capacity, like certain peak Friday evening departures, and departures in the run-up to Christmas. They have quite successfully priced off all but business travellers and the wealthy, and I do not doubt that is the most profitable strategy. It is not efficient use of the capacity, though.

The govt decided to regulate saver fares on long distance travel as a way of ensuring the general public could travel long distance at a "reasonable" price during most of the day. In contrast for commuter lines it is the peak fare which is regulated, recognising that is where the public interest is strongest.

It is an interesting question of taste whether peak capacity should be used to maximise revenue and thus minimise subsidy, or should instead be used in economically efficient manner. I think there is a case to be made for regulating peak fares also on long distance trains, but it would have to be quite clever if overcrowding were not to return.
iviehoff
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by iviehoff »

Flinders wrote:Relative to income?

Long distance fares in Japan depend upon day of travel. They have 3 fares depending upon day, high medium and low season. You can't easily search for the high season fares, so I assume those vary according to demand and may be very expensive on occasion.

As an example, I just searched for the medium season price of Tokyo-Sendai, which is about the same distance as London Manchester. (I also looked for Tokyo-Nagoya, similar distance, similar price). Perhaps we can say that corresponds to a saver fare.
Basic fare is 5,940Y and Express surcharge is 5,260Y so 11,200 in total. That's single.
11,200 Y is about £65.

Seems to be horribly difficult to find out what actually the saver fare for London-Manchester is. I just got a quote for a suitable journey and the "off-peak" price seemed to be around £35-£40 single, I got a round trip quote of around £75 for an "off-peak" ticket. And lets not forget you can get much cheaper tickets if you accept the advance restrictions.

So, trying to compare like with like for tariff systems that work very differently, the Japanese trains do seem to be a lot more expensive, for fares that normal people pay. But if we factor in that median Japanese wages are about double British wages at current exchange rates, then perhaps it is a bit more affordable for them.

An important factor to remember in Japan is that their roads are unbelievably congested in comparison to ours, that 80% of the country is not occupiable, and so people live in much more concentrated settlements which makes rail travel much more economic. Nevertheless rail only serves certain destinations and takes too long for longer distances, so you wouldn't believe how much domestic aviation they have - most of the flights at Haneda airport, a 2-runway airport which is nearly Heathrow-size, are domestic.
Ben@Forest
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Ben@Forest »

iviehoff wrote:An important factor to remember in Japan is that their roads are unbelievably congested in comparison to ours, that 80% of the country is not occupiable...


You seem to know quite a lot about Japan and I have heard before that al lot of the country is mountainous and not habitable (though I heard it was 60%) so I am just interested as to how they managed to grow their population so much. They have around 127 million people in an area (if taking 40%) about half that of the UK and if they only have 20% it's even more squeezed. How did they get such a huge population growth with such a small amount of usable land? Sorry, completely OT but fascinating.
TonyR
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by TonyR »

iviehoff wrote:So, trying to compare like with like for tariff systems that work very differently, the Japanese trains do seem to be a lot more expensive, for fares that normal people pay. But if we factor in that median Japanese wages are about double British wages at current exchange rates, then perhaps it is a bit more affordable for them.


Not so.

Average salary in Japan: $23,486
Average salary in the UK: $34,137
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... erage_wage

And unlike the UK in most Japanese households only one partner works so the disparity in household income is even more marked.
Postboxer
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Postboxer »

Meanwhile in Japan...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30067889

311 mph! Which would mean London to Edinburgh in just over an hour!
TonyR
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by TonyR »

Postboxer wrote:Meanwhile in Japan...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30067889

311 mph! Which would mean London to Edinburgh in just over an hour!


The maglev that has been running for years between Shanghai Airport and Pudong runs a regular service at 270mph over the 19 mile journey and has reached the 500kph/311mph speed in passengerless tests.
Ben@Forest
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Ben@Forest »

TonyR wrote:
The maglev that has been running for years between Shanghai Airport and Pudong runs a regular service at 270mph over the 19 mile journey and has reached the 500kph/311mph speed in passengerless tests.


Is this feasible? At 270 mph 19 miles takes 4 minutes and 13 seconds. Can it accelerate to 270 mph for any meaningful distance before having to start slowing down? Even if it is feasible it seems an odd investment, how much electrical power is required to get the train up to that speed just to start decelerating? I can understand wanting to travel at 270 mph if you have say 300 or more miles to cover but surely covering 19 miles in 20 minutes would be perfectly adequate?
Flinders
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Re: I Hate Virgin Trains

Post by Flinders »

I wonder if there's a table somewhere of average cost per mile for all European railways, split into peak and off-peak? (not including advance fares, which are no good for many of us).

(Yesterday went to London by rail. 40 mins late in (signalling) even though we (and most passengers on our train) had to change to a later service at Northampton because our driver beyond that point was still stuck somewhere around Watford, heaven knows when we'd have got in if we'd stayed with our train.) :cry:
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