Police Thugs

[Flinders]

It seems to me that it is high time the CTC approached the police officially and got some guidance. ...

Even I find the idea of approaching the police for guidance over this a bit strange.

I've been trying - especially in the other thread I started - to get some sort of measure about how often this type of thing happens and the number of cases quoted seems small; nobody else has reported being physically stopped by the police, rather than signalled to stop, so that they might be given road safety advice or whatever.

Quite a lot of advice has been given in this thread to the OP; people are free to make up their own mind about which advice they follow, of course, but some choices must surely affect the outcome. eg If medical evidence is withheld in an allegation of assault, it's unlikely to go very far.

It isn't as strange as all that, I hope.
What I'd be asking for was clarification of the law. What can you be stopped for? What may an officer ask you to do? What can they demand you do? What information are you obliged to provide (ID etc.)? What paperwork do they have to give to you? I don't know. But I would hope that the police could tell the CTC. And then they could tell us.

[Lance Dopestrong]

Surely it would be easier and cheaper for the CTC to get that guidance from a solicitor? Its all held in the standard legal texts such as Calverts or Blackstones, it'd be simple for a solicitor to guide them to the relevant pages.

[thirdcrank]

... It isn't as strange as all that, I hope.
What I'd be asking for was clarification of the law. What can you be stopped for? What may an officer ask you to do? What can they demand you do? What information are you obliged to provide (ID etc.)? What paperwork do they have to give to you? I don't know. But I would hope that the police could tell the CTC. And then they could tell us.

You seem to be reading a bit more into this than I am, but on that basis, I'd be even less inclined to turn to the police for advice. Incidentally, I'm hoping that the OP of this thread will let us know something about the advice received from the CTC and Jenny Jones.

[Tonyf33]

You're not obliged to give any details anyway if you've done nothing wrong. the police usually quote PACE but as far as I'm aware says they can only demand it if you're endangering yourself or others which is subjective of course. You don't have to give your details anyway but they might arrest you..however insisting they tell you the Act verbatim that you are supposedly breaking the law of isn't something you should shy away from.if you feel like you're being alarmed and distressed by the actions of the police(which you should state to them) this is contrary to section 5 of the public disorder Act 1986.
As has being proven, there doesn't have to be proof of intent or indeed proof of the alarm or distress..(Harvey vs DPP)
The police show their arrogance and abuse their powers frequently. Their ignorance of not only the law but also their inability to understand the basics of law and what their oath actually means in relation to being a police constable and their duty to protect us the public is pretty sickening..our rights and freedoms have being and will continue to be eroded. treatment of cyclists is just one small aspect of it.

[Flinders]

By all means the CTC could ask solicitors. But I have found in my life that if you ask the people ultimately responsible for those in the wrong to explain a problem to you, they tend to be more motivated to help you sort it out, sometimes out of sheer embarrassment. In my experience, confrontation tends to make things worse.

What I don't want to do is work on suggestions from a forum by people who may be vague, or quite sure they know the law, but may not be up to date or may be mistaken.

[thirdcrank]

... The police show their arrogance and abuse their powers frequently. ...

Be that as it may, on the other thread I started to try to find out how often police were stopping cyclists to give them incorrect advice etc., there have been few cases reported. Perhaps riders on the receiving end are so terrified of reprisals that they keep quiet. Perhaps the typical CTC forum member does little to attract police attention. Perhaps there's not much of it going on. I don't know.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Their ignorance of not only the law but also their inability to understand the basics of law and what their oath actually means in relation to being a police constable and their duty to protect us the public is pretty sickening..our rights and freedoms have being and will continue to be eroded. treatment of cyclists is just one small aspect of it.

+1

If you have ever been under the magnifying glass of police you will think that too.

[thirdcrank]

The view down any telescope is different, depending on which end you use.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Under the spotlight even.

I think that we / you have already come to an conclusion on the question on your other post, whether victims are not here, silent for there own reasons etc,

But I do think that the mistrust that obviously exists in the police needs sorting, our local Cheif Commissioner Devon & Cornwall Tony Hogg, acts like a real politition.........of today.......wont answer questions in a public debate, likes to travel and have free accomodation but does not like to commute....all at our expense.

Publicly admitted that he is not "One of them" but will not say how we got our 12 / 20 commitee members who advise him or who they are...........................or if they are one of them...............smoke and mirrors.

[thirdcrank]

I haven't come to any conclusions - I really am interested to find out what goes on.

Without wanting to derail this thread - which is why I started the other - I've been trying to find out how often the police give road safety advice to cyclists who are not - on the face of it - breaking the law. That's what triggered the incident which in turn triggered this thread. It seems that the police officer concerned was so intent on offering the advice that they floored the rider.

When this thread first appeared, I was concerned that it might be a bit of a tip of an iceberg and I think I posted as much at the time. For whatever reason, I've not been able to dig out many reports of the police stopping riders to tell them they should be wearing a helmet / hi-viz , so possibly no iceberg. One of the longerst-running current threads about this type of thing involves a rider who was advised by other cyclists. That person has more recently been advised by the police on the subject.

[Lance Dopestrong]

Apart from when I was in the Army, and odd periods off for illness etc, I've ridden daily since aged 4 and never been stopped by the Dibble. Been driving a car for 27 years and never been stopped.

Was stopped once on my motorbike when is a in my early 20s, but then I had been spotted popping a wheelie on my Gixxer, but with the perspective of time and age I must confess I earned a finger wagging advice session that day. I was lucky not to earn a court appearance, but mumbling sorry repeatedly while starting at my feet made me appear sufficiently contrite to be let off.

As an aside, the Feds represent a slice of society between the ages of 18.5 and 65 years old. The behaviour of these people simply reflects the society from which they are drawn. Society between those ages is a mix of the lazy, the hard working, the bright, the stupid, the honest, the sneaky, so why does anyone think a group of people recruited from that pool be any different to the society from which they were recruited?

Slagging off The Police as one great homogenous group of nasty idiots is extremely disingenuous. The less than worthy police officers are worthy of scrutiny, and where necessary action, but there are also hard working, honest and even brave officers who are worthy of our support.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
And these normal peple are paid hansomly by us too by the hard working private sector.
Your story could be me as I have ben stopped on motorcycles for just driving down the road, but never ina car 30 years and never on a cycle 47 years.

So maybe maybe we should recruite officers that are chosen by the public with a track record that meet our expectations of what a police officer should be and have the power to remove the bad apples instead of them receiving protection......................

[[XAP]Bob]

I've been stopped in a car - because I overtook a pair of very slow moving lorries (well, pretty slow) by putting one set of wheels onto a chevroned area as two roads merged into a slip road (to complete the manoeuvre before the slip road started to merge with the dual carriageway).
I could see that the road approaching from the right was clear apart from a distant car - which I was easily well ahead of.

They then pulled me for crossing solid white lines, which I was pretty sure I hadn't done (not that I bothered arguing the point at the time) and sure enough when I checked on Google maps that evening I was correct - they were broken lines on my side of the hatching (solid on theirs) and I confirmed it again the next day on the road.

Also been pulled for excess speed twice, although one of those was in the US, when my 42mph in a 30 zone is, IMHO, partly mitigated by the following:
Speed limit signs are presented twice - once at the change, once 400 yards later. That suffices for hundreds of miles at a time.
I had stopped late at night in a motel *in* the town, then continued in the morning along the main road:
Houses set back from the footpath, with another 2-3m of grass to the kerb. Then a parking lane (empty) before two lanes for traffic, then the centre line and the whole lot mirrored again.
It was basically twice as wide as many UK dual carriageway A roads with a 70 limit - I hadn't seen a speed limit sign for ~10 hours (8 of which I had been asleep). The officer was very polite and wrote me a ticket for a "lesser" infraction (actually I've no idea if it ever got paid, I think their banking system rejected my cheque)

[WMarkLancs]

I have never been stopped by the police at all. The only times a policeman has spoken to me in relation to bicycles were over the phone when my bike was stolen and when waiting for a train and the officer was a keen cycle-tourist.

I think that the police mostly ignore cyclists to be honest. This isn't the experience of the OP, but I think that looks like it was extremely unusual from the lack of "me too" coming from other people.

[Tonyf33]

I think people are dismissing this incident far too easily..it's pretty extreme for one thing given it IS an assault of the person and for another the police are covering their own backs and basically lying/denying what happened. id say the incident as a whole is extreme enough for people to be worried. That thirdcrank started a thread as to how often incidents happen is interesting but it really doesnt/won't ever give a true representation of the whole cross section of cyclists.