Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

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Bicycler
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by Bicycler »

The except plate and the contraflow cycle lane seem contradictory. If there's legally a contraflow lane surely the stop line should not extend across it?
thirdcrank
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: ...
A copy of the Draft Orders, a Statement of Reasons for making the Orders, and a plan showing the proposals, may be inspected at Norfolk County Council, County Hall, Martineau Lane, Norwich, and at the offices of the Borough Council of King’s Lynn and West Norfolk, King’s Court, Chapel Street, King’s Lynn, during normal office hours. ...


I think this is the important bit. The only sure way to find out what you want to know is to read it yourself.

As a general point, as a cycle campaigner, you could ask them to include you on the consultation list for TRO's and they would send you copies. It depends how they interpret the rules. This is from memory: there are statutory consultees who automatically get a copy, the most obvious being the police. Then (my wording) they must consult anyone with an interest. I can't remember which list the AA and RAC are on but they are certainly consulted as a matter of routine. When I started as a RtoR rep (actually CRN in those days) Leeds City Council only consulted the CTC if it was something 100% cycling orientated. It quickly became obvious that by the time cycle campaigners were finding out about schemes it was way past the consultation stage. (Not all schemes involve a TRO, of course.) With the aid of a friendly cycling officer, it was no problem being included on the list for getting a consultation copy of all TRO's. Bearing in mind that even a disabled parking bay outside a private house requires a TRO, it kept my postman busy but I did get copies of everything.

Another point about making TRO's is that, unless something has changed since I was actively involved, objections must be resolved by the highways committee or whatever they are now called. It took me a while to realise how this is interpreted. An objection will receive a reply which just reiterates the relevant highwayman's thinking and may not even begin to deal with the objection but they then treat the objection as resolved unless it's raised again. Most of this isn't somebody being awkward: it's because they lack the wit do provide for cycling and cyclists. The only way to have any hope of making any sort of difference is to cross-reference everything you say to Traffic Advisory Leaflets (TAL's) and the like. In my day Cycle-friendly Infrastructure was invaluable and there's other stuff which is more recent.

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I've been interrupted while typing this so there are a few posts I've not had time to check them.
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mjr
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:I think this is the important bit. The only sure way to find out what you want to know is to read it yourself.

I've asked for them and for the Notice to be added as a PDF. My experience is that if I do go to King's Court as instructed, they won't have a copy and will just have to ask County Hall to email one over.

As a general point, as a cycle campaigner, you could ask them to include you on the consultation list for TRO's and they would send you copies. It depends how they interpret the rules.

We have asked, they say they've added us and they still don't send us copies. Does anyone enforce the rules, short of us wasting everyone's resources on a court case to obstruct a TRO?

Whether we hear about schemes early enough or our responses are taken into account (regardless of whether we hang it on guidance, or national or local policies) depends completely on which officer(s) is/are handling it, or whether one of the cycle-friendly councillors takes it up. The same inconsistency afflicts the planning process. I can almost predict the response based on the officer assigned, depending on whether they're happy to build dangerous obstacle courses, are merely a bit inexperienced or actually know how to design for cycling. There seems to be far more consistency in how the guidance and policies about motoring are applied, so I feel there is probably a management problem.

Bicycler wrote:The except plate and the contraflow cycle lane seem contradictory. If there's legally a contraflow lane surely the stop line should not extend across it?

There is no lane in practice. Above, it claims that we aren't constrained to the lane. Could it be a zero-width lane legally?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Bicycler
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by Bicycler »

A zero width lane would seem a clumsy way of doing it. Perhaps the pertinent question is whether cyclists can be simply exempted from a TRO making a street one way? That would seem by far the easiest way for the contraflow to be legally achieved and would be consistent with the signage. Plenty of other TRO's offer different restrictions for different classes of traffic. It appears that this option is possible with one-way TROs: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/2
The provision that may be made by a traffic regulation order] includes any provision—
(a)requiring vehicular traffic, or vehicular traffic of any class specified in the order, to proceed in a specified direction or prohibiting its so proceeding;
my emphasis
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mjr
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by mjr »

Does anyone know of a TRO that does it that way? I guess the council legal services department would love a known-good example to copy.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Bicycler
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by Bicycler »

Sorry, nowhere locally seems to have used the recently allowed "except cycles" plate and such arrangements wouldn't have been possible before the 'except cycles' plate was permitted. If you know of any recent conversions elsewhere you could look up the advertisement of the TRO in the London Gazette.

I did find this blog which suggests it is as easy as adding a clause to the existing TRO http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/ ... ion-orders

As far as I'm aware the restriction was always one of permitted signing (including painted lanes) rather than what can be put in a TRO. Surely there should be some up to date guidance to LA's about this?
TonyR
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by TonyR »

Bicycler wrote:Sorry, nowhere locally seems to have used the recently allowed "except cycles" plate and such arrangements wouldn't have been possible before the 'except cycles' plate was permitted.


It was possible before by using the infamous low flying motorcycle sign instead of a no-entry sign.

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Bicycler
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by Bicycler »

That unwittingly creates an equestrian and non-mechanically propelled vehicle contraflow and, again, I think the DFT refused to permit it with one way streets
thirdcrank
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by thirdcrank »

In my earlier post at Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:15 pm, there's a link to a streetview of a NO ENTRY sign with a supplementary plate "EXCEPT CYCLES." That's been there some fifteen years, although it's a false one-way street, rather than a real one.

The pic from Cyclescape appears to show a sign (one of the blue rectangular information signs) indicating a one way street with an exception for pedal cycles, although it's not too clear when I try to enlarge it on my screen. AFAIK, if it were to be a one way street with a contraflow cycle lane there would be a vertical white line down the middle. I'm sorry I can't be more precise with the sign diagram numbers and meanings but I lost all the old TSRGD stuff when a hard drive crashed but googling suggests that TSRGD 2015 is still at the consultation stage.

I still think it's going to be necessary to read the actual wording of the proposed TRO but I fancy the expression "contraflow cycle lane" has been used in the summary just to mean that cyclists will continue to be exempt from the one-way street.
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mjr
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Re: Parking in contraflow cycle lanes

Post by mjr »

The notice has been uploaded as a PDF but still no order text. I'm going to County Hall next week anyway so I can get the order text then. It's so easy keeping up with these consultations, isn't it? :roll:
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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