Too many vehicles!!!

[pwa]

My suggestion for any road too narrow for a car and a bicycle to pass each other is to ban cars from it. Cycling both ways and people who want to motor can find a different route!

That makes perfect sense to me.
If two cars can't pass each other comfortably then it should be 'unsuitable for motors' or an 'access only' road with a 20mph limit.
In a sane a sensible society that would be the norm,however this is the UK

That would condemn large areas of Wales to a car ban. That might be a tad controversial. Better, perhaps, to try to get along with other road users. I've never got into an argument on country roads. I've inched up the narrowest, steepest part of the Gospel Pass climb out of Hay with a couple of cars waiting to get past, and they have hung back patiently for the minute or so it took to get to a wider bit. A quick wave of thanks from me and no sign of impatience form the drivers. That is my normal experience in that situation.

If there is a pressure it is from one's own mind. You are already making a big effort to keep the pedals going round. And now there is a car behind. Got to keep the steering neat. Don't want to hold people up too long. You have to blank that and just keep it going. The driver is sitting in a comfy chair, sheltered from the elements and listening to the radio. It will do them no harm to lose 30 seconds or more. Just keep the pedals turning, and if the driver behaves, give a wave of thanks when they pass.

[reohn2]

My suggestion for any road too narrow for a car and a bicycle to pass each other is to ban cars from it. Cycling both ways and people who want to motor can find a different route!

That makes perfect sense to me.
If two cars can't pass each other comfortably then it should be 'unsuitable for motors' or an 'access only' road with a 20mph limit.
In a sane a sensible society that would be the norm,however this is the UK

That would condemn large areas of Wales to a car ban. That might be a tad controversial. Better, perhaps, to try to get along with other road users. I've never got into an argument on country roads. I've inched up the narrowest, steepest part of the Gospel Pass climb out of Hay with a couple of cars waiting to get past, and they have hung back patiently for the minute or so it took to get to a wider bit. A quick wave of thanks from me and no sign of impatience form the drivers. That is my normal experience in that situation.

I find an abundance of patience in Welsh drivers,no so in other part of the country

If there's wider bits or passing places that's a different matter,and a different road than what's being discussed,where the road is singletrack with other options open to motors there's no reason for them to use such a route other than for access

If there is a pressure it is from one's own mind. You are already making a big effort to keep the pedals going round. And now there is a car behind. Got to keep the steering neat. Don't want to hold people up too long. You have to blank that and just keep it going. The driver is sitting in a comfy chair, sheltered from the elements and listening to the radio. It will do them no harm to lose 30 seconds or more. Just keep the pedals turning, and if the driver behaves, give a wave of thanks when they pass.

Agreed,when I'm climbing and there's nowhere for the vehicle behind me to pass,I'm not in the least bit concerned for them waiting,even if they honk their horn or shout out of an open window,both of which I've experienced,and which just hardens my resolve .
However on a flatish road or descent where I'm holding them up I'll stop at the first opportunity.

I continually find the impatience of drivers whether on a singletrack road or not is displayed almost daily by some of the most dangerous driving idiots I come across,who'll overtake me within 50m of the tailend of a 20 car stationary traffic jam,on blind right hand bends,in the face of oncoming traffic causing them to brake,etc,etc.
The last time out with a group of 6 others we were all surprised when stopped at a T junction turning right,most of us with arms out indicating,to join a major road from a small lane,waiting for traffic clear.
A middle aged couple in a car came up behind us right hand indicator on,went into the right hand lane waiting to turn out into the same road as us,.The driver couldn't see if there was anything turning left off the major road into the lane
My cycling is littered with such incidents,where such drivers see me but completely disregard my presence,as if I'm not there at all.
It's scary at times and it's got worse in recent years IME.

[Bmblbzzz]

I agree totally that it's better to get along with people. This is so obvious to my mind it hardly is worth saying! And I don't think that patience (in drivers) is a particularly Welsh trait, though there are regional variations. To most people it's obvious that a cyclist going up a steep hill is working hard and they appreciate you're not wanting to hold them up.

However, I do think it's worth instituting car bans on many narrow lanes. Not just the steep ones, either! Or perhaps better than bans would be 'filtered permeability'; yes, I'm talking bollards! Or gates or whatever physical means may be used. The idea would be to stop through traffic – shortcuts, rat runs – while maintaining access for all.

[pwa]

I agree totally that it's better to get along with people. This is so obvious to my mind it hardly is worth saying! And I don't think that patience (in drivers) is a particularly Welsh trait, though there are regional variations. To most people it's obvious that a cyclist going up a steep hill is working hard and they appreciate you're not wanting to hold them up.

However, I do think it's worth instituting car bans on many narrow lanes. Not just the steep ones, either! Or perhaps better than bans would be 'filtered permeability'; yes, I'm talking bollards! Or gates or whatever physical means may be used. The idea would be to stop through traffic – shortcuts, rat runs – while maintaining access for all.

And all deliveries to remote houses by Tesco, Yodel, etc, etc?

[reohn2]

And all deliveries to remote houses by Tesco, Yodel, etc, etc?

That would come under the "access only" application,which would cut down traffic to a bare minimum,and which TBH people living on a narrow lane rat run at present,would more than likely welcome such restrictions along with a 20mph speed limit.
We've go to remember we're discussing avoidable and difficult/narrow/dangerous routes even if driven along at speed,which they often are,that are being used to simply shorten car journeys by no more than a few minutes.

[Bmblbzzz]

I agree totally that it's better to get along with people. This is so obvious to my mind it hardly is worth saying! And I don't think that patience (in drivers) is a particularly Welsh trait, though there are regional variations. To most people it's obvious that a cyclist going up a steep hill is working hard and they appreciate you're not wanting to hold them up.

However, I do think it's worth instituting car bans on many narrow lanes. Not just the steep ones, either! Or perhaps better than bans would be 'filtered permeability'; yes, I'm talking bollards! Or gates or whatever physical means may be used. The idea would be to stop through traffic – shortcuts, rat runs – while maintaining access for all.

And all deliveries to remote houses by Tesco, Yodel, etc, etc?

Yes, they'd take the main roads too, of course. So along the main road, into village A then back to the main road and on to village B, rather than cutting down the lanes between the villages. The same for buses too, of course, though I doubt if many of them use such narrow lanes. It would technically be possible to use rising bollards to allow access for buses, taxis, certain utilities and of course emergency vehicles, in which case deliveries might be added to the permitted vehicle list – perhaps for a fee – but whether it would be financially practical I doubt.

[mjr]

The same for buses too, of course, though I doubt if many of them use such narrow lanes.

No, there are minimum clearances which most single-track+passing-place roads don't have. I did once see a 49-seat bus where the non-local driver had tried to use a single-track shortcut between two villages to avoid congestion on the main road: the bottom of the door had caught on the raised verge, dug in and bent, preventing the door from opening. Passengers were disembarking through the emergency exit and I don't think that driver will have been popular when he returned to the garage. I think it's the second-worst case of ignoring warning signs that I've seen.

It would technically be possible to use rising bollards to allow access for buses, taxis, certain utilities and of course emergency vehicles, in which case deliveries might be added to the permitted vehicle list – perhaps for a fee – but whether it would be financially practical I doubt.

Or just fit old-fashioned gates - with a gap to allow people to walk or cycle past, of course. That's usually enough to deter anyone who doesn't have to use the road. You do need someone who occasionally checks that the gate's closed (near me, they're called the Reeve but I hadn't heard that term before) but if they're there by popular consent, it won't be a problem.

[AlaninWales]

(near me, they're called the Reeve but I hadn't heard that term before)

Hadn't heard the term 'Reeve' before? Surely you knew about the Shire Reeves (and their recruitment by Sharky's men during the takeover of the Shire before that was ended at the Battle at Bag End?

[Mike Sales]

Shire reeve = sheriff.

[MikeF]

I'm often cycling on narrow rural lanes, and many drivers are extremely courteous and patient.

However on that day on that particular road there seemed to be just too many vehicles on that road.
It has a 3 ton weight restriction along it and I don't think many were "rat running" - whatever that means. However I had expected that little lane to be virtually traffic free and give me a chance of cycling up it. As it turned out I probably would have had to give up on it as it was steeper than I expected, but I won't know.

There are other hills which I know I can climb - even if only slowly - and although I don't like holding up a vehicle I do so because I know their delay will be short. That hill was an unknown to me, and I'm now a bit wary of trying again. Still it was good view at the top. , but I would have liked a better surface on the B road down.

[pwa]

I agree totally that it's better to get along with people. This is so obvious to my mind it hardly is worth saying! And I don't think that patience (in drivers) is a particularly Welsh trait, though there are regional variations. To most people it's obvious that a cyclist going up a steep hill is working hard and they appreciate you're not wanting to hold them up.

However, I do think it's worth instituting car bans on many narrow lanes. Not just the steep ones, either! Or perhaps better than bans would be 'filtered permeability'; yes, I'm talking bollards! Or gates or whatever physical means may be used. The idea would be to stop through traffic – shortcuts, rat runs – while maintaining access for all.

And all deliveries to remote houses by Tesco, Yodel, etc, etc?

Yes, they'd take the main roads too, of course. So along the main road, into village A then back to the main road and on to village B, rather than cutting down the lanes between the villages. The same for buses too, of course, though I doubt if many of them use such narrow lanes. It would technically be possible to use rising bollards to allow access for buses, taxis, certain utilities and of course emergency vehicles, in which case deliveries might be added to the permitted vehicle list – perhaps for a fee – but whether it would be financially practical I doubt.

But my point is that your Yodel delivery might be to a remote house actually on the narrow road you want to close off. Remote houses have deliveries too. In practice you would never know whether the Yodel driver is using a lane to legitimately access a home along that lane, or just taking the shortest route. It would be completely unenforceable. And retractable bollards on roads where councils currently struggle to pay for simple pothole repairs? That's high cost urban infrastructure.

[Bmblbzzz]

But Yodel etc would not be through traffic. They would be going in and then returning the same way; just like the people who lived there. We're talking about strategically placed closures to force through traffic on to through routes, not completely removing traffic. Rising bollards would, I'm sure, be too expensive.

[reohn2]

In any case Yodelling to the delivery address from the end of the lane,the recipient would hear them so they could come down and pick it up

[pwa]

Maybe restricting access might work in a small number of urban fringe situations, but not in the wider countryside. The narrow lanes are the great mass of the road network there, and the main roads are the minority. When I drive from my home I use the main roads where appropriate, but there are journeys where it would take me twice as long if I avoided every bit of narrow road. So I pick-and-mix, making sensible decisions. Only one of our local lanes is a bit of a rat run, so it is almost a non-issue here.

Any restrictions on access will only work if Sat Nav systems can take them on board. All delivery drivers are only able to do their jobs with the aid of Sat Nav. They punch in the postcode and follow the instructions. If the software could accommodate an "access only" factor it might work, but that is a technical issue that I'm not qualified to comment on. Sticking bollards halfway down a lane (with the provision of a turn-around for vehicles) already happens, but can only be appropriate in a small minority of cases.

[reohn2]

PWA
I think we're misunderstanding each other.
What's being discussed IMO are single track one vehicle width tarmac roads,with no or very few passing places that can easily be circumnavigated on two lane wider and better roads.
Some people are using the s/track option to save a few minutes,often less than five minutes,or to jump queues.
These are termed 'rat runs',they exist in rural and urban areas,where traffic could be stopped by simple measures.
TBH IMO the talk of rising bollards on such roads is pie in the sky thinking but,'access only' and 'no through road signs' with these roads blocked off at appropriate/strategic places to benefit residents would workout very well IMO.
Obviously residents,farmers and businesses need to be considered,but it would make some very small roads much more pleasant for all with only the need for one or two concrete bollards or even a large enough stone.
I don't think anyone is thinking of blocking necessary rural lanes where tens of miles are needed to circumnavigate them.