Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

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reohn2
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by reohn2 »

TrevA wrote:The story was featured on BBC East Midlands news at lunchtime. The car was a hire car and the police have been unable to trace the driver. Probably hired in a company name and the company unwilling to say which of their employees was driving. The Police say that they are very disappointed with the outcome, but there's nothing further they can do. Reginald Scot was interviewed on the programme at the scene of the incident and says it hasn't put him off cycling but he too is disappointed by the outcome. The incident did happen about a year ago but he has only just made the video public.


This I don't understand :?
Does the company have no legal duty(for fear of prosecution)to name the driver(s).
The BBC report states:-
The 52-year-old man, from Nottingham, received six penalty points and a £150 fine for failing to provide driver details

Who's been prosecuted then :?
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kwackers
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:Who's been prosecuted then :?

The only person they can prosecute is the person that 'hired' the car.

Let's face it, nobody takes a 6 point hit and a fine unless to come 'clean' potentially means something worse happens. ;)
reohn2
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Who's been prosecuted then :?

The only person they can prosecute is the person that 'hired' the car.

Let's face it, nobody takes a 6 point hit and a fine unless to come 'clean' potentially means something worse happens. ;)


I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet :wink:
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kylecycler
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by kylecycler »

TrevA wrote:The story was featured on BBC East Midlands news at lunchtime. The car was a hire car and the police have been unable to trace the driver. Probably hired in a company name and the company unwilling to say which of their employees was driving. The Police say that they are very disappointed with the outcome, but there's nothing further they can do. Reginald Scot was interviewed on the programme at the scene of the incident and says it hasn't put him off cycling but he too is disappointed by the outcome. The incident did happen about a year ago but he has only just made the video public.

There is such a thing as 'natural justice', whether you condone it or not, where what is known tends to have consequences, but if Reginald Scott was to name the company and the individual who 'received six penalty points and a £150 fine for failing to provide driver details', would that prejudice any attempt at a private prosecution? Would posting the video on YouTube even prejudice a private prosecution? Is a private prosecution a feasible proposition? Don't know, just asking.
Postboxer
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by Postboxer »

Is it possible to ignore the fact a vehicle was used and press charges for GBH or ABH, then they wouldn't be able to hide behind not providing driver details.
irc
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by irc »

Postboxer wrote:Is it possible to ignore the fact a vehicle was used and press charges for GBH or ABH, then they wouldn't be able to hide behind not providing driver details.


On the contrary. My understanding is that the requirement to name the driver only applies to Road Traffic crimes (with some exceptions) and manslaughter. For other crimes a suspect can go "No Comment." For a trivial example there is no power to require a reg keeper to name the driver when a fast food carton got thrown out the window.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/172

Usually when someone is convicted of failing to name the driver they can be disqualified though it is discretionary. It appears that in the case of a company this does not apply. As per http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/schedule/2 which for RTA 1988 S172 states disqualification discretionary except for subsections 5 and 11 which relate to offences by bodies corporate.

Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/172

So if an offence is committed by a car owned or hired to a company and the fleet manager/secretary or whoever deals with vehicles claims they don't know who was driving it's points and a fine with no prospect of a ban.

I'm guessing the justification for this exemption was the practicalities of identifying the drivers of pooled cars months after an event. Even the best systems depend on good record keeping by employees. So banning a fleet manager when he couldn't say who was speeding may have been thought OTT.

IMO leaving it as a discretionary disqualification would be appropriate. A fleet manager could give evidence as to the systems in place and the attempts made to identify a driver and the court could make a decision.
reohn2
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by reohn2 »

irc wrote:
I'm guessing the justification for this exemption was the practicalities of identifying the drivers of pooled cars months after an event. Even the best systems depend on good record keeping by employees. So banning a fleet manager when he couldn't say who was speeding may have been thought OTT.


But making the penalty so harsh that who ever is responsible would want every i dotted and every t crossed,would make it more likely the judiciary could quickly find who was driving,or the jump for bad book keeping so high no one would be willing to take the risk!

It seems yet another loophole for the criminals to ride a coach and horses through hasn't been closed. :?
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horizon
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by horizon »

irc: that's really useful, thank you. However one intention of the law is to deter revenge and mob justice. That's why various offences may be get more attention that they should and others not - it's to appease the masses. But where the law fails (as it appears to have done in this case), then a certain amount of public outrage is called for ("naming and shaming") which appears to be what is happening.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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661-Pete
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by 661-Pete »

Thus far, as I read it, there has been no 'naming and shaming'. So how many 52-year-old men, living in Nottingham, are there? How many of those men have recently received 6 points? DVLA must know, but this is not the society of the lynch mob.

Nevertheless, it is always disturbing when someone appears to escape justice. Especially in a case as serious as this one.
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mercalia
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by mercalia »

horizon wrote:irc: that's really useful, thank you. However one intention of the law is to deter revenge and mob justice. That's why various offences may be get more attention that they should and others not - it's to appease the masses. But where the law fails (as it appears to have done in this case), then a certain amount of public outrage is called for ("naming and shaming") which appears to be what is happening.


yes would like to know the name of the guilty person and his picture? what can he do about it, nothing illegal there?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Only a matter of time. Wife and husband :roll:

Latest -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-35486855
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Postboxer
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by Postboxer »

So both husband and wife say they both had the vehicle that day and both were driving it and both say they didn't hit a cyclist. The video proves one of them did it, so at the very least, ban them both, as both seem so incompetent that they've admitted it must be possible for them to have been driving and not noticed running someone over. I don't want any driver who says they wouldn't notice running someone over driving around.
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horizon
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by horizon »

661-Pete wrote:Thus far, as I read it, there has been no 'naming and shaming'.


In one sense there is. We may not know (yet) who they are but they know who they are and other people obviously do as well. But more importantly the case is out there, the victim has had his day in (the people's) court and it is being discussed openly, publicly and nationally. Even if it goes no further I think the publicity has done a lot of good already.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
reohn2
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by reohn2 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-35486855

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mercalia
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Re: Brutal hit & run - Nottingham

Post by mercalia »

I hope a hungry journalist goes after them to identify them
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