Daytime red flashing lights

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
drossall
Posts: 6115
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by drossall »

[Thread Drift]
Bicycler wrote:... It was back in the era when you could trust teenage Scouts to use their common sense. Just occasionally one of us might pop along and check but we were generally impressed with their behaviour. Some kids respond very well to trust and responsibility. I sometimes wonder if we fail to give them the opportunity these days

Depends. We do "parachute drops" that involve Patrols of Scouts walking unescorted (though with frequent check points). We take part in County camps where there are leaders around, but not immediately present or supervising, while Scouts prepare and cook food and generally camp. One of the awards for which they are aiming, by age 14, is an overnight expedition in which they check in with a leader from time to time, but are expected to navigate and look after themselves. The next section up (14-18) get dumped in teams once a year on Dartmoor, the North Wales hills, the Peak District or somewhere else they've never been before, and navigate around bases completing various challenges.[/Thread Drift]
drossall
Posts: 6115
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by drossall »

Sorry, rather hogging the conversation here.

However, back on topic. The thing that really bothers me is that it seems to me that the ideal day for driving/cycling safely is a clear day with no low, blinding sun. That's because of the even lighting.

DRLs are the antithesis of this. They encourage us all to change mode to watching out for anything with lights attached. This seems a bit tough on pedestrians, horse-riders, dogs, trees and anything else around the road environment that would not normally carry lights. It's a compromise that we have to make at night, but I don't like the idea of doing it in the day-time. And I suspect it works well specifically because few people currently do it, so you're shouting "Look at me!" Once everyone is shouting just as loud (except the pedestrians and trees), you'll just have uneven lighting, with some blinding lights, on what should have been a really good day for visibility.
User avatar
ArMoRothair
Posts: 351
Joined: 20 Jun 2013, 10:55am
Location: Londinium

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by ArMoRothair »

OldGreyBeard wrote:I've noticed quite a few bikes with red flashing rear lights switched on in daytime. This is in good weather.
Is this becoming standard practice?
What do people think about it?



Actually I've become one of those myself recently. Mainly because I'm commuting in the pen-umbra of dawn and dusk but also I've become more aware of not wanting to dress like a hi-viz construction worker to ride my bike; I now wear jeans and an ordinary overcoat.

I fully endorse everything Mark says in his post today https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... ment-35230

My transition from 'fluorescent lycra-clad cyclist' to 'person' has left me feeling a bit vulnerable and my LED lights are my way of coping. Maybe in time I'll be able to switch them off.
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

As Bicycler suggested, this sounds like a slight confusion of rule 2 (walk facing traffic - when alone or in small groups) and rule 5 (large groups keep left, and use lights at the front and back when it's dark). That's still what I'd teach Scouts, though in practice we wouldn't really walk them on roads without verges, or in large groups - so they'd be on the verge facing the traffic. It doesn't matter so much if you're on the verge, but it's good training. We only really use verges to get between two public footpaths that meet the same road a few hundred metres apart.


I may have misremembered which side of the road we walked on 40 years ago! I do remember the explanation about a slow vehicle so maybe we did walk on the left.

All the contributions have been very interesting and food for thought. I'm not sure what I'll do when I'm out next!
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
User avatar
Vantage
Posts: 3050
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 1:44pm
Location: somewhere in Bolton
Contact:

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Vantage »

I took to using drl's sometime in 2014, usually as the evening started to draw in. I took the view that if Volvo thought it a good idea for a big hefty car to be more visible, then it sure as **** made sense for a bike to be lit up.
Soon as I had the dynamo's, they were on constantly. I don't feel the need to dress in hi-viz day-glo sam browne everything and indeed most of my "I'm a proper cyclist" lycra gear is as black as black can be, but the lights I feel are a necessary evil these days.
They cost me not a jot to run and so that's a plus in my case.
I can't see drl's on other road vehicles disappearing any time soon and as much as I hate the phrase, if you can't beat them, join them.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bicycler »

Thanks Drossall, I agree about the blind bend comment. I still volunteer at a Scout campsite, so I'm familiar with what goes on, though haven't led a troop of my own for a few years. I wasn't meaning scouts weren't given opportunities to be self-reliant - it is one of the few organisations which does aim to do just that - I was on about kids in general.
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

I downloaded the paper on the history of cycle/road safety in the 20s and 30s referred to earlier. A well written doc and very illuminating. The same arguments are in play today and the doc does explain the logical and consistent nature of the CTC's then stance on rear lights.

I've always been surprised how drivers can be so confident there isn't a hay wagon round the next corner of a country lane or any other unexpected obstacle. It just goes to show how vehicles have succeeded in clearing the roads of anything that might impede their progress. Obviously I do drive a car as well ride a bike and in my younger days I'd say I drove too fast from time to time. A couple of near misses put paid to that. Remember the hay wagon I mentioned? In mitigation that was on an A road and no accident occurred. I'd still have been a KSI though.

The argument that by putting DRLs on bikes you make things without them less visible is sound and one used in the 20s to oppose rear lights. Put the argument the other way round though. What if cyclists deliberately wore camouflage gear? Not such an unlikely proposal. I read some stuff recently that said that timetriallers were required to wear black, all over, to be unobtrusive on the roads.

My flashing lights are just the budget type from Halfords. To be useful in the daytime I think I'd have to buy more powerful ones. I would use dynamo lights except I don't have a hub dynamo on any of my bikes and the bottle one on the Brompton does drag on the wheel rather. Its like losing a gear. Also dynamo lights don't have a flash setting which is an odd omission. The other problem with LED lights is if the battery loses contact momentarily due to vibration then they go off - rather like the unreliability referred to in the 1920s as a reason not to make rear lights compulsory as the rider doesn't know they've gone out. This probably doesn't happen on the more expensive LED lights.

I'm really not sure. I'm loathe to try and compensate for others poor driving behaviour by changing mine but then I don't want an accident. I had a near miss on the bike on a roundabout in daytime over XMAS which MAY have been less of a near miss if I'd had a drl on the front BUT it would have had to be brighter than the one I have. I was wearing HiVis. I suppose I'm tending towards using drls :( and therefore buying some posh lights.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
roberts8
Posts: 547
Joined: 20 May 2011, 9:14pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by roberts8 »

I use mine in the dappled light of Surrey lanes or dull conditions. Having said that, last week on a dull day with lights flashing a lady in a bmw sat so close to my leg I banged the headlight of her car. She then swerved across the road and caused an oncoming car to brake hard. On this occasion lights had no effect. She of course gave me some verbal.
Phil Fouracre
Posts: 919
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 12:16pm
Location: Deepest Somerset

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Phil Fouracre »

That's close :-(

Had a run in with a car close overtake a while ago, thumped the roof and upset him. Wasn't really until later that I thought about it more and realised that to hit the roof where I did, the body of the car was so close to be almost touching me
Don't know what you can do about serious driver misjudgment
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
mig
Posts: 2702
Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by mig »

isn't the law in the netherlands that a driver is to blame if there is a collision/incident between a bike and a vehicle?
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by pwa »

mig wrote:isn't the law in the netherlands that a driver is to blame if there is a collision/incident between a bike and a vehicle?


That's another argument, really. The main point of voluntarily using a red rear flasher in daytime must be to reduce the chances of not being noticed. The question of who to blame only arises if that measure fails, which of course it will occasionally. For me it is all about risk reduction and percentages. If something I can do will make me 5% safer I will do it, so long as it is not too inconvenient. The 5% improvements add up and reduce my chances of being hurt. Well, that's the theory. Not scientific and no guarantees, but it's the best I can come up with.
mig
Posts: 2702
Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by mig »

won't it place more onus on them actually looking for you though?
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

Had a run in with a car close overtake a while ago, thumped the roof and upset him. Wasn't really until later that I thought about it more and realised that to hit the roof where I did, the body of the car was so close to be almost touching me]


I'm tending more to let it go when someone does that sort of thing. It just raises the levels of aggression. I mutter "ar**h*le" to myself instead.

Does a drl flasher improve the chances of being seen by motorists? Probably in my view as flashing red & white lights are only used by bicycles so they are perceived as such. It doesn't solve the problem that that perception often includes "therefore slow" when even I can whizz long at 15mph+. Then of course there are enough people who will simply bulldoze their way through whatever you do.
Last edited by OldGreyBeard on 28 Jan 2016, 9:58am, edited 1 time in total.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by pwa »

mig wrote:won't it place more onus on them actually looking for you though?


I understand that point of view but I just don't think human brains work that way. No driver wants a collision anyway (except for the odd psycho). No BMW driver even wants their paint scratched, never mind having a 14 stone lump like me bouncing off their bonnet. Nor do they want to have to stop and apologise or argue. Even less do they want the police to turn up and start asking uncomfortable questions. The incentives for not having a collision are numerous and are there already. People who take chances do so because they think they are not going to make contact with you.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by reohn2 »

OldGreyBeard wrote:.....I've always been surprised how drivers can be so confident there isn't a hay wagon round the next corner of a country lane or any other unexpected obstacle........


The ultimate optimism/stupidity? :?
It goes along with overtaking on blind bends despite a primary riding position,it's borne out a feeling of right and invincibility,confirmed by feelings of security the more they do it when nothing comes the other way.
And there's always a get out clause of a swerve to the left irrespective of the cyclist they're overtaking.

The superiority of size is a sad indictment of UK car culture,confirmed by an almost total lack of any chance of being caught for such actions,and IMHO it's getting worse.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Post Reply