Daytime red flashing lights

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bmblbzzz »

OldGreyBeard wrote:At my local cycle forum meeting last week we saw road accident stats. The main cause of accidents was that the driver claimed not to see the thing they hit. This was true for pedestrians, cyclists and was even the majority cause when hitting other vehicles. Perhaps drivers simply aren't very good or good enough for the powerful cars and complex junctions we now have.

I do wonder whether always-on lights will start being a choice for some and shift into being de facto compulsory for all. I did use a flashing rear light on my Sunday ride for the first time last week. Not sure if it helped. There seemed to be more danger from the road surface forcing me to move abruptly.

It took 34 years for car headlights (1977 Sweden passed first daytime headlight law, 2011 EU compulsory DRLs). It won't take so long next time, probably.

Edit: It took a little longer. Finland got there first in 1972, but only during winter and out of town.
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Brucey »

'the dog ate my homework' too....

'I didn't see them'

sounds better than

' I didn't bother looking'

or

' I saw them and decided to do something stupid anyway'

or

'I was on the phone so of course I couldn't avoid hitting them'

etc etc etc

Being lit up like a Christmas tree may not be of very much benefit if the true cause is of this sort.... :roll:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
iviehoff
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by iviehoff »

reohn2 wrote:Which would be even considered as an acceptable defence in a court of law,in the same way some travesties of justice are being passed by courts against cyclists ATM.Just recently an HGV driver was totally absolved of blame when he ran over and killed a well lit Hi Viz wearing cyclist in a rainstorm,his excuse being that he didn't expect to there to be a cyclist on that road

Do you have a citation for that? Was it a jury trial? It tends to be juries that acquit in such cases, not lawyers, assuming you have given us all the important salient facts of the case.
Bicycler
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Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bicycler »

SA_SA_SA wrote:
OldGreyBeard wrote:....I've heard that the CTC was opposed to compulsory rear lights before. Where can I find out more about this?

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83340&hilit=rear

That's the one I was looking for earlier. Ta.
james01
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Joined: 6 Aug 2007, 4:48am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by james01 »

Bicycler wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:
OldGreyBeard wrote:....I've heard that the CTC was opposed to compulsory rear lights before. Where can I find out more about this?

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83340&hilit=rear

That's the one I was looking for earlier. Ta.


My late father, a CTC member in the 1930s, remembered this as a hugely emotive issue among cyclists. Incidentally he also recalled massive arguments over possible compulsion to use cycle tracks alongside the new by-passes which were being built around the country, still highly topical now.

Back to the thread, I reluctantly feel the need to use daytime flashing lights on certain local roads. For example there's a narrow, fast, rural B road with open stretches alternating with darker tunnels of trees. The flashing light undoubtedly makes the cyclist visible from far greater distances and may just make a driver reconsider a dangerous overtaking move. I really do resent having to dress like a Christmas tree in broad daylight but I do feel safer.
OldGreyBeard
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

Downloaded the doc on rear lights or rather the history of road conflict 1926 to 35. Its is 27 pages long and quick dipping into it suggests well worth reading.

The key issue beig the one of transferring responsibility to cyclists etc from the source of the danger, motorists.

Back in the 1970s when I was in the Scouts, when we did night hikes we were told to carry a white light at the front and a red one at the back as a line of 5 or more people was considered to be a vehicle. We also walked along facing the oncoming traffic as per the Highway Code. I've no idea if that is still the practice. My daughter's Guide troop don't do nights hikes.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
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OldGreyBeard
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

Similar subject on the As Easy as Riding a Bike blog https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/invisibility/
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
pwa
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by pwa »

I've been wearing hi-viz at work for many years, and I've not minded doing so because it makes sense. I feel the same about high visibility clothing for anyone on the road in poor light conditions. Not just on a bike. I try to have some reflective bits on me when I walk on the dark lanes round here. And I carry a torch. You may say that the driver of the next car to come round the corner should be alert, and driving at a speed that allows them to react in time (and most are okay around here) but do you really want to rely on that? Do you think we are likely to get to 100% reliable drivers any time soon? If not .........
Bicycler
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bicycler »

OldGreyBeard wrote:Back in the 1970s when I was in the Scouts, when we did night hikes we were told to carry a white light at the front and a red one at the back as a line of 5 or more people was considered to be a vehicle. We also walked along facing the oncoming traffic as per the Highway Code. I've no idea if that is still the practice. My daughter's Guide troop don't do nights hikes.

Funnily enough the Highway Code has always advised that large groups with front (white) and rear (red) lights walk on the LEFT as if the group was a vehicle. I've never understood why.

[Thread Drift]With the night road walking I did with my scouts (a few years later) I kept them to the right with a leader at the front. No rear light, though the other leader at the rear used to take a Sam Browne belt. We let some patrols do camps and night hikes without supervision where we trusted the Patrol Leader(s). I put the lamp and Sam Browne on the kit list (and noted why) but don't know whether they actually used them whilst out on the road. I'd hope they did. It was back in the era when you could trust teenage Scouts to use their common sense. Just occasionally one of us might pop along and check but we were generally impressed with their behaviour. Some kids respond very well to trust and responsibility. I sometimes wonder if we fail to give them the opportunity these days[/Thread Drift]
Last edited by Bicycler on 27 Jan 2016, 2:46pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bicycler
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bicycler »

pwa wrote:I've been wearing hi-viz at work for many years, and I've not minded doing so because it makes sense. I feel the same about high visibility clothing for anyone on the road in poor light conditions. Not just on a bike. I try to have some reflective bits on me when I walk on the dark lanes round here. And I carry a torch. You may say that the driver of the next car to come round the corner should be alert, and driving at a speed that allows them to react in time (and most are okay around here) but do you really want to rely on that? Do you think we are likely to get to 100% reliable drivers any time soon? If not .........

An individual pragmatically choosing to make allowances for poor driving is a tad different to legislating to make allowances for poor driving.

cyclist wrote:"I wear hi vis and have daytime lights cos driving standards are poor"
( understandable)

legislator wrote: "You must wear hi vis and have daytime lights because driving standards are poor"
(well, sort them out then!)
reohn2
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by reohn2 »

iviehoff wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Which would be even considered as an acceptable defence in a court of law,in the same way some travesties of justice are being passed by courts against cyclists ATM.Just recently an HGV driver was totally absolved of blame when he ran over and killed a well lit Hi Viz wearing cyclist in a rainstorm,his excuse being that he didn't expect to there to be a cyclist on that road

Do you have a citation for that? Was it a jury trial? It tends to be juries that acquit in such cases, not lawyers, assuming you have given us all the important salient facts of the case.


I thought it was on the lenient sentences thread but can't find it.
It was reported on here somewhere though IIRC,I don't know if it was a jury or not :?

If anyone remembers it could they post a link to it please
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MikeF
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by MikeF »

iviehoff wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Which would be even considered as an acceptable defence in a court of law,in the same way some travesties of justice are being passed by courts against cyclists ATM.Just recently an HGV driver was totally absolved of blame when he ran over and killed a well lit Hi Viz wearing cyclist in a rainstorm,his excuse being that he didn't expect to there to be a cyclist on that road

Do you have a citation for that? Was it a jury trial? It tends to be juries that acquit in such cases, not lawyers, assuming you have given us all the important salient facts of the case.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/20151113-lorry-driver-expected-cyclist-road-says-coroner
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
MikeF
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by MikeF »

Even pedestrians should be wearing the right sort of clothes. :roll: http://www.sussexsaferroads.gov.uk/info/safer-for-other-users/pedestrian-visibility
Notice cyclists and equestrians are also referred to as "other users" as well as pedestrians. :evil:
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
Mike Sales
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Mike Sales »

There is a piece of advice in the Highway Code which, if it was to be followed, would eliminate the need for all these agonised discussions on hiviz or lights.

The writers of the H.C. thought it so important that they say it twice, in paragraphs 126 and 154.

Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear.


Make sure you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear.


I mention this not to say that it means we should not need to try to be so conspicuous. I mention it because it hardly ever gets mentioned when cyclists are so often told that they are being foolhardy if they don't use hiviz etc.

It is my impression that very few drivers actually stick to this commonsense advice. When I have brought up 126 and 154 on online forums motorists explain why it is impractical or even impossible to obey this rule.

I would be surprised but very pleased if people like Meg Hillier M.P., vicechair of the All Party Parliamentary Cycling Group, were to start publicising this advice, and telling drivers to obey it. But no, she sticks to telling cyclists to dress up.

https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/invisibility/
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
drossall
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Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by drossall »

OldGreyBeard wrote:Back in the 1970s when I was in the Scouts, when we did night hikes we were told to carry a white light at the front and a red one at the back as a line of 5 or more people was considered to be a vehicle. We also walked along facing the oncoming traffic as per the Highway Code. I've no idea if that is still the practice. My daughter's Guide troop don't do nights hikes.

As Bicycler suggested, this sounds like a slight confusion of rule 2 (walk facing traffic - when alone or in small groups) and rule 5 (large groups keep left, and use lights at the front and back when it's dark). That's still what I'd teach Scouts, though in practice we wouldn't really walk them on roads without verges, or in large groups - so they'd be on the verge facing the traffic. It doesn't matter so much if you're on the verge, but it's good training. We only really use verges to get between two public footpaths that meet the same road a few hundred metres apart.

The principle of facing the traffic is obvious - you get more warning to throw yourself in the hedge. For large groups, remember that the drivers are supposed to be able to stop in the distance that they can see to be clear. A large group is the size of a (very) slow vehicle, so ought to be moving in the same direction as one.

On sharp bends, you need to consider whether it's better to be on the outside of the bend irrespective of side of the road (rule 2).
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