Daytime red flashing lights

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by iviehoff »

Boris Bikes, the London bike-scheme bikes, have always-on lights. They are powered by a hub dynamo. You can't turn them off. They aren't particularly bright.

I have fitted always-on Reelights to my commuting bikes. They don't even have a switch on them, you can't turn them off. They have no batteries and are permanently attached. They are LED lights powered by a small current created by the motion of a magnet on the spokes past the light, with a capacitor to keep them going when you stop at the lights. They are similar to Boris Bike lights in power and action, but the generator operates differently. When it is actually dark, or very dim, I also use powerful lights which are removable and have switches, but the Reelights create a back-up for when the other lights go flat/broken/lost.

I have observed that when it is a bit dim, eg due to heavy cloud or rain, lights make bicycles much more visible. So I am content to have always-on lights on my commuting bikes. I think it would be wrong to prevent me.

I don't use them on my touring bikes.
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

At my local cycle forum meeting last week we saw road accident stats. The main cause of accidents was that the driver claimed not to see the thing they hit. This was true for pedestrians, cyclists and was even the majority cause when hitting other vehicles. Perhaps drivers simply aren't very good or good enough for the powerful cars and complex junctions we now have.

I do wonder whether always-on lights will start being a choice for some and shift into being de facto compulsory for all. I did use a flashing rear light on my Sunday ride for the first time last week. Not sure if it helped. There seemed to be more danger from the road surface forcing me to move abruptly.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by pwa »

I would not be too bothered if it became compulsory to have daytime lights. I already use them on very overcast days, and it would be no hardship to extend that to all days. I had no idea that CTC had opposed cyclists having to use lights at night. I find that astonishing.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by reohn2 »

iviehoff wrote: .....I think it would be wrong to prevent me.......


I don't think anyone wants to stop the use of day/always on lights just that the concern is a motorist could use the excuse that they didn't see a cyclist who didn't have lights on in good visibility daylight.
Which would be even considered as an acceptable defence in a court of law,in the same way some travesties of justice are being passed by courts against cyclists ATM.Just recently an HGV driver was totally absolved of blame when he ran over and killed a well lit Hi Viz wearing cyclist in a rainstorm,his excuse being that he didn't expect to there to be a cyclist on that road :? :evil:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
poppet
Posts: 40
Joined: 28 Jan 2015, 9:05pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by poppet »

Aren't cars now fitted with daytime running lights? And motorbikes for a long time.

I use mine in the daytime. Front and back when the traffic/weather/light makes me think it's worth it.
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Heltor Chasca
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Joined: 30 Aug 2014, 8:18pm
Location: Near Bath & The Mendips in Somerset

Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Heltor Chasca »

pwa wrote:I would not be too bothered if it became compulsory to have daytime lights. I already use them on very overcast days, and it would be no hardship to extend that to all days. I had no idea that CTC had opposed cyclists having to use lights at night. I find that astonishing.


I think this is closest to my view. The activist in me wants freedom of choice and no more laws that are impossible to police and only used in the post-sense (extreme example: tough luck, the cyclist wasn't wearing hi-viz.) In the meanwhile I'm going to increase my chances of a safe trip. I don't wear a lid or hi-viz, but I like to light up.

Our road culture is what needs changing. We need to change to opinions of the driving instructors, examiners, police, learner drivers, the Highway Code, current drivers' attitudes, the road infrastructure, and so on and so on. The task is mammoth. Presently the UK isn't a safe environment to cycle mainly because of attitude and infrastructure. How do you go about adjusting the culture of an entire nation? Sheesh...b
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by reohn2 »

Heltor Chasca wrote:
pwa wrote:I would not be too bothered if it became compulsory to have daytime lights. I already use them on very overcast days, and it would be no hardship to extend that to all days. I had no idea that CTC had opposed cyclists having to use lights at night. I find that astonishing.


I think this is closest to my view. The activist in me wants freedom of choice and no more laws that are impossible to police and only used in the post-sense (extreme example: tough luck, the cyclist wasn't wearing hi-viz.) In the meanwhile I'm going to increase my chances of a safe trip. I don't wear a lid or hi-viz, but I like to light up.

Our road culture is what needs changing. We need to change to opinions of the driving instructors, examiners, police, learner drivers, the Highway Code, current drivers' attitudes, the road infrastructure, and so on and so on. The task is mammoth. Presently the UK isn't a safe environment to cycle mainly because of attitude and infrastructure. How do you go about adjusting the culture of an entire nation? Sheesh...b


And the Turkeys rarely vote for Christmas.........
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

I know most motorbikes use lights in the daytime but I thought that was just what they did rather than it being compulsory. They didn't used to do that, its something that has developed over the years, probably in response to the large number of accidents.
Remember the Think Bike ad from the 1970s? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ojHWOiA4Xk
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bicycler »

pwa wrote:I would not be too bothered if it became compulsory to have daytime lights. I already use them on very overcast days, and it would be no hardship to extend that to all days. I had no idea that CTC had opposed cyclists having to use lights at night. I find that astonishing.

It is seldom any great inconvenience if we are forced to do what we already do. It is the way that this compulsion might affect others which is of concern.

The CTC's stance is ridiculous today with todays accepted norms, but made sense in the context of the era. The road environment was completely different. Traffic was slower and initially no vehicles were required to have rear lights. The expectation was that drivers should be able to stop within the distance that their headlights shone. The possibility of ploughing into a slow moving truck if you travelled too fast provided a very good incentive to follow the advice. It was feared that the proposed introduction of rear lights and the extension of them to cycles would tempt drivers to exceed the safe speed knowing that any vehicle further in front ought to be actively lit. I think it is fair to say that this is exactly what has happened since. The cycle light technology of the time was dim and unreliable and a vehicle driving in such a manner looking for lights on a car or truck might not be able to stop in time upon noticing the faint cycle lamp.

It also has to be understood that this was a time of fairly powerful pedestrian and cycle campaigns (CTC membership alone was huge) at loggerheads with and suspicious of anything proposed by the influential motor lobbyists. The motor lobby sought to increase speeds and shift responsibility for the huge number of deaths their machines were causing onto the people who were being injured. In the US, in light of large number of motor vehicles striking pedestrians the lobby had successfully campaigned to legislate to prevent pedestrians crossing the road with its 'jaywalking' campaigns. Everything was seen in that light. This is how a contemporary magazine saw the situation
Image
Last edited by Bicycler on 27 Jan 2016, 11:34am, edited 6 times in total.
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

I love that cartoon.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by Bicycler »

Me too. It's from an old edition of Punch. Credit goes to forum member Squeaker for posting it some time back
OldGreyBeard
Posts: 404
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by OldGreyBeard »

The expectation was that drivers should be able to stop within the distance that their headlights shone.


Imagine if people drove like that still, if they ever did.
It does seem that drivers expect the road ahead to be clear all the time.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by pwa »

Heltor Chasca wrote:
pwa wrote:I would not be too bothered if it became compulsory to have daytime lights. I already use them on very overcast days, and it would be no hardship to extend that to all days. I had no idea that CTC had opposed cyclists having to use lights at night. I find that astonishing.


I think this is closest to my view. The activist in me wants freedom of choice and no more laws that are impossible to police and only used in the post-sense (extreme example: tough luck, the cyclist wasn't wearing hi-viz.) In the meanwhile I'm going to increase my chances of a safe trip. I don't wear a lid or hi-viz, but I like to light up.

Our road culture is what needs changing. We need to change to opinions of the driving instructors, examiners, police, learner drivers, the Highway Code, current drivers' attitudes, the road infrastructure, and so on and so on. The task is mammoth. Presently the UK isn't a safe environment to cycle mainly because of attitude and infrastructure. How do you go about adjusting the culture of an entire nation? Sheesh...b


If it makes you feel a bit more optimistic, my son's driving instructor (about 3 years ago) emphasised the need to give cyclists room when passing. He told my son to imagine that the cyclist was someone he knew and cared about.
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by pwa »

Using the roads is a matter of choreography, with various forms of road user all trying to use the space without colliding. It is appropriate to talk about rights and responsibilities, but we also have to talk about practical things that can help the choreography to work better. If someone suggests that compulsory bike lighting during the day will help, I am willing to listen. In the meantime I will continue using daytime lights on dull days.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Daytime red flashing lights

Post by SA_SA_SA »

OldGreyBeard wrote:....I've heard that the CTC was opposed to compulsory rear lights before. Where can I find out more about this?

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83340&hilit=rear
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