I've noticed quite a few bikes with red flashing rear lights switched on in daytime. This is in good weather.
Is this becoming standard practice?
What do people think about it?
Daytime red flashing lights
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OldGreyBeard
- Posts: 404
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Daytime red flashing lights
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
Mixed feelings. I entirely understand why people do it, but it's raising the bar again. Soon, we may have courts accepting that a cyclist was not visible because he/she had no day-time lights. Even rear lights in the dark were introduced for additional visibility; they were not proposed as a new minimum standard, which is why the CTC was so resistant to them at the time.
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
that is pretty much how I feel about it too.
cheers
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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OldGreyBeard
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
I have to say I'm not at all sure BUT drivers are just so unobservant. Perhaps flashing lights help and red ones are only used by bicycles.
The issue raised by drossal is valid: it becomes the norm and not having them is contributory negligence
The issue raised by drossal is valid: it becomes the norm and not having them is contributory negligence
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
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OldGreyBeard
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
Even rear lights in the dark were introduced for additional visibility; they were not proposed as a new minimum standard, which is why the CTC was so resistant to them at the time.
I've heard that the CTC was opposed to compulsory rear lights before. Where can I find out more about this?
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
I have a feeling daytime lights are now compulsory for bicycles somewhere, but I can't remember where: Denmark maybe. Of course, they're compulsory for cars throughout Europe now, in practice, and a good way beyond.
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
I tried in vain to find a very interesting article I read regarding pedestrian and cyclists' campaigns of this period. It was a long time back, we are talking about a debate of the 1930s and 40s.
The CTC's position on compulsory rear lights was simply that requiring them made the leap from expecting motorists to drive within the limits of their own headlights, to expecting cyclists to make drivers aware of their presence. It shifted the responsibility away from the driver and this, to the CTC's mind, encouraged faster and more careless driving which endangered other road users. They also argued that it might lead to an arms race of lighting in which cycles could not compete. I don't think they were far off in their predictions!
The CTC's position on compulsory rear lights was simply that requiring them made the leap from expecting motorists to drive within the limits of their own headlights, to expecting cyclists to make drivers aware of their presence. It shifted the responsibility away from the driver and this, to the CTC's mind, encouraged faster and more careless driving which endangered other road users. They also argued that it might lead to an arms race of lighting in which cycles could not compete. I don't think they were far off in their predictions!
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
Cross-posted with Bicycler.
One source is The Winged Wheel. By coincidence, there's a copy on sale in the forum - I've no connection with the seller, but I noticed it today.
It mentions the debate at various points in its history of the CTC, because it came up at various times from the beginning of the last century. Especially so in war-time, because restrictions on vehicle lighting meant that drivers could not see ahead so clearly.
In essence, the CTC was, as far as I can make it out, opposed to compulsion, not to lights (rather as with helmets now). The law has always said that it is the duty of a road user to avoid running into others, rather than of the others to avoid being run into (within reason - we're talking about from behind here, not about pulling out at junctions). On the face of it, therefore, rather than the duty being to avoid hitting what you can see, it is to avoid proceeding unless you can positively see that the way is clear. So anything that you hit that did not move into your path is your fault, period.
The concern was that compulsory lights undermined that key principle by transferring the responsibility for avoiding accidents to the road user (cyclist) in front. That remains an issue - witness recent debates here where a driver was blinded by the sun, but apparently proceeded anyway.
Now I'm not sure that any of us would actually want to ride without rear lights and light-coloured or reflective clothing at night now, and many would want them in day time too. However, I suppose, if they give extra visibility, then one might expect a court case to go along the lines of "Not only did you manage to hit the cyclist, but you hit him even though he had a rear light. Therefore, we will put an extra point on your licence (or whatever) over and above the normal penalty."
However, that is not the case, and rather, the bar is raised for a cyclist to be considered to be meeting the basic visibility criteria, as above.
Now that's rather more confrontational than I really am, especially given that most here are both cyclist and motorist, but I do accept, when driving, that it is essentially my responsibility not to hit things or people. After all, pedestrians on unlit roads do not carry lights or reflectors.
By the way, The Winged Wheel also mentions an attempt to advocate helmets in 1965! I didn't think that there were any practicable ones for about 20 years after that.
One source is The Winged Wheel. By coincidence, there's a copy on sale in the forum - I've no connection with the seller, but I noticed it today.
It mentions the debate at various points in its history of the CTC, because it came up at various times from the beginning of the last century. Especially so in war-time, because restrictions on vehicle lighting meant that drivers could not see ahead so clearly.
In essence, the CTC was, as far as I can make it out, opposed to compulsion, not to lights (rather as with helmets now). The law has always said that it is the duty of a road user to avoid running into others, rather than of the others to avoid being run into (within reason - we're talking about from behind here, not about pulling out at junctions). On the face of it, therefore, rather than the duty being to avoid hitting what you can see, it is to avoid proceeding unless you can positively see that the way is clear. So anything that you hit that did not move into your path is your fault, period.
The concern was that compulsory lights undermined that key principle by transferring the responsibility for avoiding accidents to the road user (cyclist) in front. That remains an issue - witness recent debates here where a driver was blinded by the sun, but apparently proceeded anyway.
Now I'm not sure that any of us would actually want to ride without rear lights and light-coloured or reflective clothing at night now, and many would want them in day time too. However, I suppose, if they give extra visibility, then one might expect a court case to go along the lines of "Not only did you manage to hit the cyclist, but you hit him even though he had a rear light. Therefore, we will put an extra point on your licence (or whatever) over and above the normal penalty."
However, that is not the case, and rather, the bar is raised for a cyclist to be considered to be meeting the basic visibility criteria, as above.
Now that's rather more confrontational than I really am, especially given that most here are both cyclist and motorist, but I do accept, when driving, that it is essentially my responsibility not to hit things or people. After all, pedestrians on unlit roads do not carry lights or reflectors.
By the way, The Winged Wheel also mentions an attempt to advocate helmets in 1965! I didn't think that there were any practicable ones for about 20 years after that.
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
drossall wrote:Mixed feelings. I entirely understand why people do it,
I agree,though it's a sad state of affairs they feel the need to.
but it's raising the bar again. Soon, we may have courts accepting that a cyclist was not visible because he/she had no day-time lights........
That's the worry,when and if it becomes the norm,there's a chance it'll be expected,at all levels
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
I too am concerned about this, along with flashing searchlights on the front in daylight. As others have said, the more it becomes common the more it is expected. On a similar vein, on this very forum a few years ago somebody said that all cyclists should use cameras to record their rides. I asked "what about people who are out for more than a few hours or perhaps on tour for several weeks or months". The response was "I only commute so that is all I care about".drossall wrote:Mixed feelings. I entirely understand why people do it, but it's raising the bar again. Soon, we may have courts accepting that a cyclist was not visible because he/she had no day-time lights.
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OldGreyBeard
- Posts: 404
- Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 9:01am
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
One thing that occurred to me is that the London hire bikes (Boris Bikes) have permanently on flashing dynamo lights front & back. Perhaps this is where the practice originated.
I've also seen quite a few flashing front lights on during the day but less often than rear ones.
I've also seen quite a few flashing front lights on during the day but less often than rear ones.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
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Heltor Chasca
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- Joined: 30 Aug 2014, 8:18pm
- Location: Near Bath & The Mendips in Somerset
Daytime red flashing lights
I flash when I'm on the school run even in daylight. Otherwise I only turn them on when it's dull or dark. I guess when 'I'm carrying precious goods' I pull out all the stops and arm myself to the teeth. Sadly car drivers are not observant enough and secondly there is a culture of blame if you are not wearing hi-viz etc.
The journalists are in on the game too. Only yesterday I read in our local rag that a 'car' ran down a stray dog and the police are hunting down the 'car' that did this dreadful deed. [emoji849]
The journalists are in on the game too. Only yesterday I read in our local rag that a 'car' ran down a stray dog and the police are hunting down the 'car' that did this dreadful deed. [emoji849]
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
Heltor Chasca wrote:I flash when I'm on the school run even in daylight.
Don't you get cold?
Bill
“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
Vantage wrote:Heltor Chasca wrote:I flash when I'm on the school run even in daylight.
Don't you get cold?
Or arrested?
What manner of creature's this, being but half a fish and half a monster
Re: Daytime red flashing lights
I use a flashing front light in the probably vain hope that it will register in the brain of a motorist about to pull out in front of me.
Many motorists don't register anything smaller than a car I'm just hoping the light makes a difference.
I have a bright rear light in the hope that on winding roads and in shadow under trees, an approaching motorist will register my presence earlier (if he happens to look up from reading a text etc).
Probably there is only a marginal advantage if any - I'm not sure about raising the bar - courts, CPS, police all seem to operate on the principle that a cyclist is reckless for being on the road in any case.
Many motorists don't register anything smaller than a car I'm just hoping the light makes a difference.
I have a bright rear light in the hope that on winding roads and in shadow under trees, an approaching motorist will register my presence earlier (if he happens to look up from reading a text etc).
Probably there is only a marginal advantage if any - I'm not sure about raising the bar - courts, CPS, police all seem to operate on the principle that a cyclist is reckless for being on the road in any case.