I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

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Manc33
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Manc33 »

I took my own bag in a shop where they still give you free bags and he was really happy because I had my own bag lol. He was probably saving 1p.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
toomsie
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by toomsie »

Tonyf33 wrote:
toomsie wrote:A Sainsbury’s member of staff said I must be rich to spending 5p on a bag. I said it cost a lot more to drive to work. It casts me more than 5p in opportunity-costs in doing my own shopping. I can’t help feeling that there are too many unintended consequences regarding 5p bags.
Here is a list of some possible unintended consequences.
Some hygiene issues: Customers will use less bags to separate meats from other foods. Reusable bags are less hygienic. The Extra resources needed for the NHS could wipe out any environmental benefits.
You would have to use a reusable bag 100+ to recoup the cost, apparently. Cleaning them uses up resources too. In some cases, too much for it to be worthwhile.
• Extra security. Some supermarkets have put tags on their bags. Extra resource for security would wipe out any benefits.
• Extra resources needed for administration for the Government and the retail side. Building cost, commuting cost, energy utility bills, stationary cost etc.

Sorry but that is totally unfounded and without a scrap of evidence, even Gloria Hunniford tried to make out that this was an issue on the BBC a few weeks back and their tests done in a lab showed negligible amounts of bacteria not enough to make a scrap of difference to anyone even the vulnerable and frail which she quickly had to round up by saying be careful and end the piece as it showed the whole thing was a load of nonsense.
Most food based bacteria will die off without critical components to survive/multiply, with the cooking process killing off any small amounts of extra bacteria that might come into contact with foods that you would cook, ambient products isn't an issue and say for instance salad items or fruit that isn't in a packet the chances of a few microbes from the previous lot of shopping having this massive effect on the NHS is scaremongering at its very worst! :x
.


Possibly could be right. Its would be very hard for me to verify anyway.
toomsie
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by toomsie »

pwa wrote:
toomsie wrote:
CREPELLO wrote:Toomsie, yer havin a laugh aren't you? Perhaps you'd prefer no government at all, or no regulations - afterall, they all cost money don't they? :lol:

The scheme is essentially self administering by the supermarkets. There's no bag tax to collect as the 'profit' goes to charity.


The free market can provide rules and regulation on a voluntary basis. I sell on Amazon and Ebay. They Amazon and Ebay are very customer oriented. If you don’t receive your goods or not happy with it, they reimburse your money back. They have a feedback system that encourage sellers to provide value or risk losing out to the competition.
All business are under pressure to be more efficient than the competition. Efficiency of providing good and services while using less resources. Less resources usually means less earth’s resources.
The supermarkets were doing a good job already regarding bags. They were selling thinner greener bags.
The governments does not have a green track regard.


You think supermarkets automatically behave in a "green" way, without regulation? A joke, surely! And living in a place where the 5p bag system has been operating for several years now, I see a lot less rubbish blowing about. Like the Smoking Ban, it quickly became generally accepted as a good thing and there is no desire for a return to the past.


It might well be the case that 5p bags and smoking bands are a good thing. Then it wouldn't be long before many land owner realise this and create rules of there own for anyone using their land. I am sure some large shopping mall would implement a smoking ban and 5p bags is good and would make these roles for any shops in the mall.

Over regulation bring about their own negative externalities, many of them are harder to see. Most countries have more regulation now then ever before and where governments run a high percentages of the economy then ever before. Lets hope the world economic problem are temporary.

pwa wrote:You think supermarkets automatically behave in a "green" way, without regulation? A joke, surely! And living in a place where the 5p bag system has been operating for several years now, I see a lot less rubbish blowing about.


I remember when the country had less regulations. It was easier to start a business and houses was cheaper despite the rubbish.

I got a link here. 'The Fall of the United Kingdom' , I am full of good news as usual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-ibcORs4I4
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Vantage
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Vantage »

toomsie wrote:It might well be the case that 5p bags and smoking bands are a good thing. Then it wouldn't be long before many land owner realise this and create rules of there own for anyone using their land. I am sure some large shopping mall would implement a smoking ban and 5p bags is good and would make these roles for any shops in the mall.


Landowners already have rules. No camping allowed in most of the UK and where camping is allowed, many owners ban campfires due to the risk of spreading and damage to the ground. I've been to sites where fires are allowed and frankly, they're an eyesore full of black patches everywhere.
Smoking was banned in enclosed public spaces such as malls because of the risk to both smokers and non smokers. Hardly a stupid rule. Bags have a charge to reduce crap in the countryside and wider area. Again, hardly a stupid idea.


I remember when the country had less regulations. It was easier to start a business and houses was cheaper despite the rubbish.


I'd rather pricy housing than a country full of rubbish.

I got a link here. 'The Fall of the United Kingdom' , I am full of good news as usual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-ibcORs4I4


Given this entire thread I wonder if it's worth editing the words "good news" for something else. :mrgreen:
Bill


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matt_twam_asi
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by matt_twam_asi »

toomsie wrote:It might well be the case that 5p bags and smoking bands are a good thing. Then it wouldn't be long before many land owner realise this and create rules of there own for anyone using their land. I am sure some large shopping mall would implement a smoking ban and 5p bags is good and would make these roles for any shops in the mall.


The whole point is that the supermarkets could have introduced the 5p per carrier bag at any time, but they didn't. They didn't when the bag for life was introduced and they didn't when Scotland and Wales implemented the 5p per bag rule. Sometimes the government just needs to give private enterprise a push to do the right thing.

toomsie wrote:I remember when the country had less regulations. It was easier to start a business and houses was cheaper despite the rubbish.


There were more pirates in the 1800s and global average temperatures were lower. We should reintroduce piracy to combat global warming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy
Bigdummysteve
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Bigdummysteve »

I think the 5p charge is a great idea, one thing it stops is the automatic bagging of single items. Many times I would buy a single item and have to remove it from the bag and return it to the cashier, usually they look at you as odd. Environmentally you have to look at the combined effects of small changes, I for instance make sure our recycling is as small as possible by crushing the milk cartons etc. This takes up less room so minimises truck rolls in collection. We've used our own bags for a while as we use aldi for some of our shopping, they have charged for bags for ages so you naturally take your own.

If you have a wilco near you they do a large fold up shopping bag which packs very small and is strong, I keep one in the top tube bag for random shopping. For the big trips I now use two heavy duty bags from lomo, these are big enough to fill the slings on the bigdummy and fit as much shopping as we need.
What we need now is some any of forcing a reduction in packaging, some goods are so over packaged its ridiculous which means more bags :evil:
toomsie
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by toomsie »

matt_twam_asi wrote:There were more pirates in the 1800s and global average temperatures were lower. We should reintroduce piracy to combat global warming.


I believe you are after the "correlation does not equal causation' fallacy. I love the ice-cream fallacy even more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B271L3NtAw

However, I have noticed that some markets are more regulated then others. IT and technology has made the biggest progress and barrier to entry are small. look at the amazing smartphones and tablets. I got a Linx win 10 tablet for £119 on Ebuyer. It runs a full version of windows 10 so you can run your legacy windows programs on it. It wasn't to long ago that pcs were heavy and made some awful fan noises as it overheats.

What progress has highly regulated markets such as health and education made. They just get more expensive. If foreign hospitals and schools want to set up shop in UK, they can't or find it difficult because it is a protected market.
Mike Sales
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Mike Sales »

toomsie wrote: If foreign hospitals and schools want to set up shop in UK, they can't or find it difficult because it is a protected market.


Is that so? There are private hospitals and clinics in Britain. Is there a law that they cannot be foreign owned? Haven't I read that foreign health companies are making inroads into the increasingly privatised NHS? You will find that quite a few Tory MPs have interests in thses companies.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Mike Sales »

Mike Sales wrote:You will find that quite a few Tory MPs have interests in thses companies.


A quick google found this.

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/p/key-facts-of-lords-and-mps-connections.html

These companies have been buying Labour politicians too it seems, but more Conservatives.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
toomsie
Posts: 193
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:05am

Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by toomsie »

Mike Sales wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:You will find that quite a few Tory MPs have interests in thses companies.


A quick google found this.

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/p/key-facts-of-lords-and-mps-connections.html

These companies have been buying Labour politicians too it seems, but more Conservatives.


Thnks for link. Public money into private companies is not free market, its still a monopoly. It is competition that drives down costs and improves quality. Apparently, the French healthcare system is the best in the world. If it is why am I stuck with the NHS. Its a good thing UK government don't monopolise cars or we would be stuck with Rovers and Land Rovers. They would brake down often and everyone would assume this is the norm for car reliability.
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by pwa »

toomsie wrote:
matt_twam_asi wrote:There were more pirates in the 1800s and global average temperatures were lower. We should reintroduce piracy to combat global warming.


I believe you are after the "correlation does not equal causation' fallacy. I love the ice-cream fallacy even more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B271L3NtAw

However, I have noticed that some markets are more regulated then others. IT and technology has made the biggest progress and barrier to entry are small. look at the amazing smartphones and tablets. I got a Linx win 10 tablet for £119 on Ebuyer. It runs a full version of windows 10 so you can run your legacy windows programs on it. It wasn't to long ago that pcs were heavy and made some awful fan noises as it overheats.

What progress has highly regulated markets such as health and education made. They just get more expensive. If foreign hospitals and schools want to set up shop in UK, they can't or find it difficult because it is a protected market.


Tosh. Germany has no NHS to speak of, and health care there is more expensive than here. Health care in the USA is expensive. You picked a poor example there. But what has any of this got to do with a tiny charge on a plastic bag to discourage overuse?
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Mike Sales »

toomsie wrote:
Thnks for link. Public money into private companies is not free market, its still a monopoly. It is competition that drives down costs and improves quality. Apparently, the French healthcare system is the best in the world. If it is why am I stuck with the NHS. Its a good thing UK government don't monopolise cars or we would be stuck with Rovers and Land Rovers. They would brake down often and everyone would assume this is the norm for car reliability.


What would not be a monopoly in your view?
There are private doctors, clinics and hospitals in the U.K.
Private money is making profits out of providing services and buildings to the NHS. The profits from the PFI are obscene.
Private health insurance is widely advertised.
Why are you stuck with the NHS? You are free to go private.
Where is the monopoly?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by pwa »

Mike Sales wrote:
toomsie wrote:
Thnks for link. Public money into private companies is not free market, its still a monopoly. It is competition that drives down costs and improves quality. Apparently, the French healthcare system is the best in the world. If it is why am I stuck with the NHS. Its a good thing UK government don't monopolise cars or we would be stuck with Rovers and Land Rovers. They would brake down often and everyone would assume this is the norm for car reliability.


What would not be a monopoly in your view?
There are private doctors, clinics and hospitals in the U.K.
Private money is making profits out of providing services and buildings to the NHS. The profits from the PFI are obscene.
Private health insurance is widely advertised.
Why are you stuck with the NHS? You are free to go private.
Where is the monopoly?


The French pay more for their health care than we do. That is why it is better. Nothing to do with competition driving down costs. Everything to do with punters paying more.
Vorpal
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by Vorpal »

toomsie wrote:Thnks for link. Public money into private companies is not free market, its still a monopoly. It is competition that drives down costs and improves quality. Apparently, the French healthcare system is the best in the world. If it is why am I stuck with the NHS. Its a good thing UK government don't monopolise cars or we would be stuck with Rovers and Land Rovers. They would brake down often and everyone would assume this is the norm for car reliability.

In general, competitive health care systems are more expensive. There are all kinds of reasons for this, and some of them have more to do with the legal systems in the countries where they operate than the markets themselves.

Forbes seems to think that Switzerland is a good example of a relatively free market system with regards to health care that still provides universal coverage. Their costs are somewhat less that in the UK, but they also rank a little lower on the WHO league tables.

If you truly want free market, you have to eliminate the NHS and allow health care recipients to negotiate and pay for their health care independently, or through their insurance companies. Maybe Guatemala is a good model? Of course, even the USA isn't completely free in that regard, because most people cannot choose their insurance company, but have to select between a limited number of companies that have agreements with their employers. And of course, for those who can't afford insurance or health care, tough luck.
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TonyR
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Re: I paid 5p for a bag on my commute to work.

Post by TonyR »

toomsie wrote:Its a good thing UK government don't monopolise cars or we would be stuck with Rovers and Land Rovers. They would brake down often and everyone would assume this is the norm for car reliability.


Ah, nostalgia for the days of British Leyland. Remember the Morris Marina and the Austin Allegro ?
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