Is it my road position?

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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

That's a separate point, though. I was replying to the OP's remark that "pulling-in to allow cars to get past would make restarting the journey hazardous". There shouldn't be any need to "restart" the journey.
Vorpal
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Vorpal »

jatindersangha wrote:Hi all,

Thanks for the responses so far.

The road is an A-road, 40mph with many cars attempting to go over 40. That stretch is also windy with blind bends - hence the solid double white lines in the centre of the road. Once you're on that stretch there's nowhere to turn off (no pavement) - so I'd say pulling-in to allow cars to get past would make restarting the journey hazardous?

Regarding primary vs secondary, due to the narrowness of the road, surely cars will always have to cross the centre-line in order to leave a suitable gap when overtaking? My opinion is that it's the windy nature of the road and the frequency of oncoming traffic that prevents overtaking - not my position as such.

In any case, I'll try shifting to the left a bit and seeing what happens. Thankfully I only use that road once every week or two.

What do you use to judge your distance from the kerb? I try to keep about 3 drain-widths from the kerb (on the possibly flawed assumption) that a normal drain is about 30cm.

Thanks,
--Jatinder


I think your road position looks absolutely fine, and is about where I would ride on a road like that. I fear that if you ride closer to the kerb, you will have more close overtakes because it will tempt people to overtake where it isn't really safe.

Your road position is correct, or at least reasonable for the conditions, according to Cyclecraft, which is the government's official guide for cycling safety.

I generally sit more or less in the left wheel rut, but I try to keep at least an arm's length from the kerb. I ride in the middle of the lane through junctions and pinch points, and sometimes also where the road is winding, or it is otherwise unsafe to overtake.

3.2 metres is an awful width. It's just wide enought that people think they can share, but not wide enough to make sharing safe. :evil:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Bez
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Bez »

Which police force was this?
jatindersangha
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by jatindersangha »

The road section is the A322 between Bisley and West End just outside Woking.

So it was Surrey Police in Guildford.

Here's a street view picture. Not me on the bike...I'd normally be skimming the outside edge of the large drain.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.33485 ... 312!8i6656

Thanks Jatinder

PS: Scrolling around in streetview shows some interesting pics - basically vans taking up the entire width of the lane - and cars taking up approx. 75%. Now that I've seen this pictures - I'm even more convinced that overtaking can only occur if the motor vehicle crosses the central white lines.
rfryer
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by rfryer »

jatindersangha wrote:Scrolling around in streetview shows some interesting pics - basically vans taking up the entire width of the lane - and cars taking up approx. 75%. Now that I've seen this pictures - I'm even more convinced that overtaking can only occur if the motor vehicle crosses the central white lines.

One thing to consider is that it makes a difference how far a car needs to venture into the oncoming carriageway in order to overtake. If you leave just enough space that they don't have to, then you run an increased risk of close overtakes. If you force them over the line by a few inches, then they will have to wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic, which should allow them to give you more room during the overtake. If you force them over by a few feet, then they will (or, at least, should) wait for a significantly larger gap in the oncoming traffic, and possibly get frustrated about "not being able to overtake in gaps which would have been large enough had you been riding more considerately".

Just another perspective - there's a compromise here between personal safety, and consideration for other road users - and it's every cyclist's responsibility to find the right balance for them. Airing the question here helps to achieve that, for lots of people at the same time.
Vorpal
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Vorpal »

“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
MikeF
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by MikeF »

I hate those roads with central cross hatching. They obviously reduce the effective width of the carriage and is that where the difference of 4m (police) and 3.2m (your) arises? I'm not even sure why just two close space white lines can't be used.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

It's a fairly unusual road marking. At least, it might be common in Surrey but I don't think it's common on a national level. The hatched area has continuous white edge lines, making it actually illegal to enter. Usually the edges are dashed, which is not illegal to enter. I suppose there were a large number of head-on collisions there, or more likely "partial" head-ons, maybe wide vehicles hooking each others mirrors, that kind of thing, which explains why they are trying to keep traffic away from the middle of the road. Or maybe they just wanted to make the road seem narrower.

As for discrepancy in stated road widths, apart from various inaccuracies, where were you measuring to? If you measured, logically, to the first white line and the police gave a distance to the theoretical centre, could that account for the difference?
beardy
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by beardy »

I'm not even sure why just two close space white lines can't be used.


I assume that it maintains a safety space between lines of oncoming traffic, leaving room for people to swerve out in emergencies when something unexpected happens, like a cyclist appearing unexpectedly on the road in front of them (magically, from nowhere :roll: ).
Tangled Metal
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Tangled Metal »

You also also get a parking ticket if you park your car in a section of road with central hatching no matter how wide the road is. Hatching is like double white lines as far as parking goes. There's a stretch of road between royal Lancaster infirmary and Ripley school that is a nice, wide and leafy section with plenty of space to park without causing any obstruction. Trouble is there's a hatched area there so they always catch people out with tickets and £67 fines. Nothing in the way of signs to say no parking you're simply supposed to know. Off topic I know but there's probably a lot of regulations surrounding road markings that most people are ignorant of until it catches.you out.

AFAIK the recommended passing distance for other carriages passing cyclists is 1.5m. I've made that assumption because on a holiday to north Wales the advertising on the back of all the car parking tickets were about passing cyclists at 1.5m or greater. Advertising paid for by the local police constabulary. I assume they had a good reason for that distance.

Of course different constabularies can vary this distance but if 4m road width minus 1.5m leaves 2.5m for a 2m carriage and your safe distance from the kerb. So is 500mm ok distance to safely avoid detritus, drains, etc on the side of the road?

Sorry Mr Surrey policeman you're an *** (small hoofed animal that is a member of the Equidae family).
Tangled Metal
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Sorry if off topic but I think someone above or a link given above seemed to say police do not proceed if the video evidence shows the victim committed an offence on the road. Is this true? Would it not be better all round if the police prosecuted all offences shown in the video irrespective of who it was committed by?

My argument is that prosecuting a cyclist is a small price to pay for more motorists getting prosecutions. How many get off because the police spotted the reporting cyclist offending elsewhere on the video? I know the consequence is worse with the actions of motorists but not prosecuting them won't help them to understand their driving is dangerous. I don't buy into the argument about cyclists being vulnerable completely because an offence is an offence irrespective of the vulnerability of the offender. Unless the offence was.necessary to prevent injury.

I'm probably alone in wanting prosecutions on motorists to go ahead even at the cost of the victim also getting done. Afterall that driver's next victim might not survive to report.
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mjr
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by mjr »

jatindersangha wrote:What do you use to judge your distance from the kerb? I try to keep about 3 drain-widths from the kerb (on the possibly flawed assumption) that a normal drain is about 30cm.

I think your road position was fine. I think I judge my distance from the edge as sufficient that if I fall, I'll probably land within the carriageway and not headbutt the kerb - or alternatively (in secondary) that I can jump clearly off onto the verge or footway and not headbutt the kerb. I don't think pulling into the side is a safe practice. Having a "A322 Cycle Track Now!" sign on the back might be more use.

Maybe contact http://www.wokingcycle.org.uk/ to try to help or to get help dealing with the police. That was an awful response from them. I've been told that Norfolk Constabulary won't prosecute close passes based

These days, now I'm not so quick, if the police are that unhelpful, I'd probably be taking a detour to avoid a road that nasty unless I was in a rush :( Big thanks to those of you who do still ride it, though, as it's important for cycling not to die out on them.

Oh and I thought the VW number plate was RO - Romania - with IR denoting Bucharest.
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beardy
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by beardy »

Oh and I thought the VW number plate was RO - Romania - with IR denoting Bucharest.
Thanks, one mystery solved.
jatindersangha
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by jatindersangha »

Bmblbzzz wrote:...
As for discrepancy in stated road widths, apart from various inaccuracies, where were you measuring to? If you measured, logically, to the first white line and the police gave a distance to the theoretical centre, could that account for the difference?


I can't say for certain, but I don't think the police actually measured the width of the lane - I'd say that you could probably add another 6inches or so if you included the central white line etc. I will say that the video [2] that I gave them makes the lane look wider than it is when the following cars get close - a slight fish-eye effect that you get with some lenses.

I measured the distance from the kerb (or the outside of the kerb-side white line if no kerb) to the inside of the central white line - ie. the shortest distance that could be considered the "lane". I can't think of any reason why that would be inaccurate as that's where the traffic travels? The police also said that cars would be able to overtake without crossing the white lines if the "road" was 4m wide...implying that there's 4m between the kerb and the central white line.

I drive on that road much more than I cycle on it - and the lane is obviously between the kerb and the central lines - and it gets very hairy if there's a large oncoming truck coming around the bend as they often drift onto or over the central white lines.

Thanks,
--Jatinder
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Re: Is it my road position?

Post by Vorpal »

Tangled Metal wrote:You also also get a parking ticket if you park your car in a section of road with central hatching no matter how wide the road is. Hatching is like double white lines as far as parking goes. There's a stretch of road between royal Lancaster infirmary and Ripley school that is a nice, wide and leafy section with plenty of space to park without causing any obstruction. Trouble is there's a hatched area there so they always catch people out with tickets and £67 fines. Nothing in the way of signs to say no parking you're simply supposed to know. Off topic I know but there's probably a lot of regulations surrounding road markings that most people are ignorant of until it catches.you out.

AFAIK the recommended passing distance for other carriages passing cyclists is 1.5m. I've made that assumption because on a holiday to north Wales the advertising on the back of all the car parking tickets were about passing cyclists at 1.5m or greater. Advertising paid for by the local police constabulary. I assume they had a good reason for that distance.

Central hatching is only like solid white lines, if it has solid white lines. If the lines are broken on the central hatching, it can legally be entered.

As for the passing space, there is no recemmended distance in the UK. The HIghway Code says

HC rule 163.jpg
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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