Cats eyes...

[Bmblbzzz]

A piece of publicity (masquerading as journalism) that exaggerates the negatives of its competitors. Who'd a thunk it!

[syklist]

Do we really need active cats eyes, should we not be maintaining the passive safety aspect? Or should we ditch the rear reflectors for cyclists and motorists as well?

I really miss cats eyes/reflectors here in Norway. They tend to use marker posts at the side of the road which do not give as good an indication as to where the road is going. I find that it does make night driving in the dark and snow free periods of the year much more demanding.

[Bmblbzzz]

Do you miss them while cycling? How do you find the use of reflective marker posts (common across much of Europe) affects your night driving, apart from making it more demanding?

[syklist]

Do you miss them while cycling? How do you find the use of reflective marker posts (common across much of Europe) affects your night driving, apart from making it more demanding?

I don't cycle really in the dark months these days. So the lack of cats eyes is not an issue for me when cycling. Although, I do miss them in unlit tunnels when on cycle tour.

Marker posts are much more widely spaced than cats eyes so you cannot always judge the lie of the road from the marker posts. At least not with the detail that cats eyes offer. Marker posts are not always the same height from the road surface, although they should be. Cats eyes offer subtle information such as changes in camber and dips in the road surface which can be lost with reflective marker posts. Marker posts can be obscured by oncoming traffic, not just the ones on their side of the road but also the ones on your side. For example (continental Europe) a sharp left hand bend after a straight, a line of traffic can hide all useful information about the left hand turn when the road only has reflective marker posts. My experience is that the line of cats eyes works better when the road is wet and there is a lot more light reflecting from oncoming lights.

[[XAP]Bob]

So is the response of motorists to slow down due to the lower quantity/quality of information - or do they take the British approach and leave the boot in, trusting that the car will protect them if anything goes wrong?

[MikeF]

DfT consultation response here Question 8.
This is my concern "Active studs use internal light emitting diodes as their light source giving extended visibility distances and better performance in poor weather conditions over traditional studs." This means drivers maybe travelling blindly into areas they cannot see; they will just be following a line of studs regardless of what's actually on the road, eg cyclist.

"Government response
8.4 We believe there is sufficient support for allowing the use of studs that only have light emitting diodes. There did appear to be some confusion amongst respondents about the question and it is worth noting that in the 30% who did not support this measure, the majority thought we were removing traditional studs altogether in favour of LED only studs.
8.5 This is not the case and the decision as to whether or not to use them or traditional studs will be a decision for the traffic authority. We will therefore prescribe studs with light emitting diodes without reflectors in the new Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions."

This may eventually mean phasing out of conventional cats eyes.

[Bmblbzzz]

I smell a contract.

[Bmblbzzz]

Skylist – thanks for your answer. Camber in particular is a feature that hadn't occurred to me. However, I must say Bob's post gets to the mark: do you (drivers in Norway in general) drive with a little more consideration for unlit things that might be on the road because there is slightly less information marked out for you?

[[XAP]Bob]

To be fair to the Norwegians... some of the unlit things are about the size of a horse, and hit the car just over the bonnet, so there is no effective crumple zone...

The car can't necessarily protect it's occupants in that case...

[pwa]

Last night I was driving a van on the A4107, which at 527 metres is the highest A-road in Wales. It was very dark, windy and the rain was torrential. I was very thankful for the cats eyes. Without them it would have been a much more hazardous journey.

[beardy]

Without them it would have been a much more hazardous journey.

So long as everything else that you were in danger of driving into was marked out equally reflectively as the line of the road was.

[pwa]

Without them it would have been a much more hazardous journey.

So long as everything else that you were in danger of driving into was marked out equally reflectively as the line of the road was.

In the pitch black, anything with lights or reflectives would have stood out really well. The sheep, with their light fleeces and reflective eyes were fairly easy to spot, too.

[[XAP]Bob]

Last night I was driving a van on the A4107, which at 527 metres is the highest A-road in Wales. It was very dark, windy and the rain was torrential. I was very thankful for the cats eyes. Without them it would have been a much more hazardous journey.

Assuming you were driving at the limit of what you considered acceptable risk then I assert that it would merely have been a slower journey.

[Vorpal]

Do you miss them while cycling? How do you find the use of reflective marker posts (common across much of Europe) affects your night driving, apart from making it more demanding?

While I do think that the use of reflective markers makes for somewhat more demanding driving, they are visible in winter when cat eyes wouldn't be. In summer, it matters less because there is less dark. Of course, in the autumn and spring when they might be the most help, we don't have them. On the other hand, they would have to use the (more expensive) retractable ones, and I can imagine that ice would cause quite of few of them to freeze up, anyway, and then get peeled off the road by snow plows.

I agree with syklist that it would be nice to have them in tunnels. I do cycle in the winter dark some, but if I can't see well enough to find the edge of the road, I use sidepaths, or take to the pavement (which is legal in Norway). A mistake may not be less likely, but it's less likely to get me into conflict with motor vehicles, and there is no pressure to keep up with traffic. I also have industrial strength lighting, which has three settings, the lowest of which is fine for normal road lighting. The highest, though, is meant for unlit ski tracks in the depth of a winter forest. It's too bright for normal road usage, but I have it if I need it. I just have to take care not to dazzle people if I resort to it.

As for driving at night.... the speed limits are lower anyway, and I think that it encourages drivers to take it more slowly, especially on winding roads. IMO, the main difficulty is when one comes across a combination of reflective markers and other reflective signs that can mislead, or even create a kind of illusion. I have come across this kind of thing a few times. A few months ago, I was driving back from the mountains in the dark, and I came across a place where there were relatively few of these markers, and I saw some ahead that looked like they were on the same line as the road was where I was, so I was slightly surprised to come across a bend in the road. Thinking about it afterwards, it seemed that they were reflective markers on another road, or a farm track that were bigger, but farther away than the ones along the road that I was on. There were some logs stacked near the road, so my guess is that the other reflective markers weren't visible when they had done the last road safety inspection.

I could give other examples, but those kinds of experiences make me miss cat eyes. In general, though, I think that the road environment here doesn't lack much because of them.

[syklist]

Do you miss them while cycling? How do you find the use of reflective marker posts (common across much of Europe) affects your night driving, apart from making it more demanding?

While I do think that the use of reflective markers makes for somewhat more demanding driving, they are visible in winter when cat eyes wouldn't be. In summer, it matters less because there is less dark. Of course, in the autumn and spring when they might be the most help, we don't have them. On the other hand, they would have to use the (more expensive) retractable ones, and I can imagine that ice would cause quite of few of them to freeze up, anyway, and then get peeled off the road by snow plows.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. If you have a high brøytekant (snow wall left by the snow plough) then the side marker posts disappear anyway. The centre of the road, where the cats eyes would be, is clear of snow and ice long before the snow wall disappears and the side marker posts re=appear. In the snowy part of the winter here in Hallngdal it is a moot point as, with all the snow around it is much easier to see where the road is going. It is the grey bits of the year, spring and autumn are where I would most appreciate cats eyes. However, as you point out the snow ploughs would rip many of them out every winter.