Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cycling

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whoof
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by whoof »

I don't think there is a lot of point posting about near misses on Facebook etc. But there are places where you can provide details where is might be of use. Avon and Somerset police have an online near miss reporting 'tool'
https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/a ... near-miss/

The police might be taking all of this information and then ignoring it. However, I'm pretty sure that nothing will happen if nothing is reported. Why would they consider putting resources towards solving a problem that as far as they are concerned does not exist? All public services are now driven by targets,. I have in the past contacted the police to report youths riding illegal motorbikes as yet I don't know of anyone being caught. But if enough people in the area report such incidents and they are logged the police may do enough to catch someone.
Psamathe
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by Psamathe »

simonineaston wrote:
mnichols wrote:I'm on a number of cycling facebook pages and forums, and I'm concerned by all the posts and coverage of near misses and road rage incidents...
I never read 'em, - I don't see the point. It's not that I don't have sympathy for the missee - of course I do - but what's to be gained from posting them apart from the poster feeling a little bit better about the incident after posting - hopefully - otherwise there really isn't any point!

Couple of years ago when I was considering taking-up cycling I was concerned about safety and was searching the internet for comments by others and, whilst I can't remember specifics, I did see stuff that made me more worried after my searches. I ended-up asking some cyclists I met on the road and did take-up cycling. But it was a close thing.

simonineaston wrote:...It's not as if posting about these events means they're all captured somehow and used as any sort of meaningful data... neither do they serve as a useful warning to anyone in particular....

I wonder if that nothing meaningful happens is because of where they are posted (e.g. Facebook/Twitter/similar). Were the data collected by a researcher, maybe in a standardised format or through a form that encouraged useful data to be collected, then something meaningful could be found. Maybe particular types of junction or times of day, etc. and that could them prompt further more specific research or recommendations about making specific problem areas more cyclist friendly e.g. adjusting road layout to discourage drivers from squeezing past ... whatever.

I can see loads of problems with the data collection (e.g. your sample not being random, some may not admit to or even recognise being contributory to the incident when they were, etc., but hopefully by collecting specific data the analysis could eliminate some variables.

Ian
iviehoff
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by iviehoff »

mnichols wrote:
iviehoff wrote:How has the railway industry achieved its very low accident rate? By being focused on "nearly" accidents, what they call "accident precursors".

This is a really interesting and valid point, but that sounds like a structured and methodical appproach that leads to an outcome. Where as what I see on the forums and on facebook is just "Guess what happened me.." with no process, structure or outcome
iviehoff wrote:Nothing happened in 2,300 miles over 30 days? Are you talking about being on a cycle tour in locations selected for being pleasant cycling?

It was a self planned, self supported end to end of America, from Canada to Mexico, using whatever roads where available, often freeways, sometimes interstates and busy roads.

I think the problem is that there is no structured and methodical approach by the authorities to bad driving, the authorities take little interest in it until an accident happens. The railways have systematically reduced their accidents over a period during which they have run more trains and carried more passengers. In the past, they had many more accidents. They should be concerned with accident precursors if they are to get the accident rate down.

Nevertheless, people will always report anecdotes, on any subject, and anecdotes are usually available to be experienced to justify many false world-views. You should see the debates on "magic medicine".

Most anecdata on near misses seems to come from urban cycling - commuting trips, mostly in the rush hour. I think incidents are less frequent on tours - though the highest rate of bicycle casualties, per bicycle-km, is on main country roads.

(For all that comment someone made about the railways not having much traffic, railways routinely run trains at a density that does rely on working safety infrastructure and close adherence to procedures to avoid accidents. Someone had a life-changing injury on the opening day of the Stockton and Darlington Railway, and someone was killed on the opening day of the Liverpool and Manchester railway, with Stephenson's rocket running at bicycle speed. Given railway braking distances and speeds, you have to keep vehicles apart. We used to have a much higher accident rate, and some less developed and intermediate countries, like India and Egypt, still have a high railway accident rate. Also, it isn't just trains hitting each other, the Hatfield accident was a high speed derailment without any other vehicle involved; and a substantial proportion of recent serious accidents have involved road vehicles which got onto the track.)
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NUKe
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by NUKe »

A lot of the internet near misses I've seen seem to fall into 2 categories

1 some one making a meal out of nothing .
2 the actual incident they want you to see is preceded by bad cycling.

Of course there are some out there that are just plain bad driving.

But I wish internet cyclist with camera would realize that cameras with wide angles don't really show how close a pass is. And arguing with a motorist is never going to change their mind, they are never going to listen. When has a motorists ever replied with a sane response to " You were a bit ******** close" such as " I am sorry my good man, I'll leave more room in future"
Although the camera wielding road warriors know how to start a fight, Comments like "I've got a camera and I'll report you to the police" usually start the neanderthal fists flying.
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ossie
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by ossie »

Depends on your mileage. I wouldnt say things are distorted, I encounter a near miss or two on nearly every 40-60 mile ride (3 times a week ) and a complete full on act of aggression every few months.

There are some seriously deluded motorists on the roads, however as stated the majority arent.

Simply assume they all are and ride defensively.
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mjr
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by mjr »

Depends where you're riding, too. I ride most days and suffer a near miss every couple of months, but West Norfolk is lovely and I'm mostly on cycle tracks beside A roads.
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iviehoff
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by iviehoff »

NUKe wrote:When has a motorists ever replied with a sane response to " You were a bit ******** close" such as " I am sorry my good man, I'll leave more room in future"

Actually I have come across some car drivers who simply apologise for what they did. I think there are quite a few people who realise that apologies are cheap and effective, and insincerity is not easily detectable unless you make it obvious.
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NUKe
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by NUKe »

Sorry I didn't mean that drivers never apologize. Just If you take the moral high ground and try and tell someone how they should drive you are unlikely to be met with a civil response.
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by Vorpal »

There is this sort of skew in almost everything we see in media and social media.

What do we read about the weather in other countries? Mainly disasters: flooding, hurricanes, tornadoes, monsoons, etc. We don't read about all the sunshine in Forida unless someone wants to sell a holiday package.

Does that give us a distorted view of the weather conditions in North America? Perhaps. One could believe that there's a high likelihood of encountering hurricanes or tornadoes. It doesn't seem to prevent visitors from travelling there.

Nor does news about football hooligans prevent people from all over the world attending football games in the UK.

IMO, the intimidating road environment puts off far more people from cycling than YouTube videos do.
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matt2matt2002
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by matt2matt2002 »

What a great thread and comments.
The last few made me smile.

In June and July this year I cycled 1,500 miles through Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan along the Pamir Highway.
Crazy drivers and bad roads but I never had a close call to shout about.

Within a week of being back home in UK I had several ' encounters' of the close kind and received a couple of verbal diatribes.

Endless possibilities as to why this all took place.
Increased population back here?
Two months of carefree riding before coming back to normality?
Sods law?
Please draw your own conclusions, or otherwise.
But its true.
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Ellieb
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by Ellieb »

The problem is: what matters to you most as a householder? The 4,999 law abiding people who walked past your house, or the 1 who broke in and burgled you? It doesn't really matter how many good drivers there are. People are concerned about the bad ones. Again it will depend on your ride, but on my commute there is one corner where I can expect to be treated with aggression (or see outright dangerous driving) once or twice a week. It is a corner I can't avoid. I don't keep a log of incidents, but I would say that in general, aggressive, antagonistic behaviour is so commonplace that it is barely worth comment. This one reason why I rarely if ever contribute to 'bad driving incident' threads.
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mjr
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by mjr »

I'm one up for the day. Two acts of exceptional kindness - driver of one of Norse's trucks letting me across while he was queueing and a van driver reversing back when he had precedence over me but a line of traffic was preventing his progress (bad junction design IMO, but that's how it was) - and one of exceptional stupidity - the driver of an SUV treating the far side of the cycle lane as the give-way line, instead of the end of the side road.

Other than that, nothing much remarkable, other than it's blooming cold and there still seem to be quite a lot of people cycling :) but then, seeing queues of motorists on the roads we cross probably keeps reassuring people that cycling is still a smart choice :)
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ossie
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by ossie »

matt2matt2002 wrote:What a great thread and comments.
The last few made me smile.

In June and July this year I cycled 1,500 miles through Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan along the Pamir Highway.
Crazy drivers and bad roads but I never had a close call to shout about.

Within a week of being back home in UK I had several ' encounters' of the close kind and received a couple of verbal diatribes.

Endless possibilities as to why this all took place.
Increased population back here?
Two months of carefree riding before coming back to normality?
Sods law?
Please draw your own conclusions, or otherwise.
But its true.


Ive just done 1500 miles through Holland / Germany and France without incident .Like you I return and encountered abuse / near missus and even and attempt to drive me off the road, indeed everything I encountered before this particular tour.

My conclusion is that a large percentage of the British motoring public are simply impatient and there's some kind of growing hatred (in a minority) towards cyclists that's escalating for whatever reason..be it increased numbers of cyclists / inadequate road conditions or cyclists being confident enough to assert themselves on the road more and drivers not being aware of their obligations towards other road users.

We all know that the majority of drivers when they see a cyclist have one thought that overrides all others...."I must get in front of that cyclist"
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horizon
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by horizon »

mnichols wrote:I think it presents a very negative, unbalanced view of cycling that can only discourage people from getting on a bike


I don't think people need discouragement and I don't think you need worry about it. Although cycling on the road is, on the face of it, a somewhat hazardous activity I've never believed the risks really stopped anyone from cycling. What stops them is the existence of other choices.

Separately though, there is something that goes on between cyclists and motorists that hasn't been properly calibrated by society. Your post doesn't make clear though whether you think it doesn't exist or we simply shouldn't talk about it.
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mnichols
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Re: Posting near misses presents a distorted view of the cyc

Post by mnichols »

One thing that I noticed when I came back from a month of cycling in America, is how small, windy and narrow our roads are. Many were built before cars and certainly before the amount of traffic we have now. Taking a trip as a passenger in a car yesterday was a horrible, frustrating experience compared with America. I think car drivers are often wound up before they even meet a cyclist
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