Woman found guilty of attempt to mow down cyclist with SUV

[beardy]

It seems to me that people who want revenge more than a solution don't have much room to complain about the problem.

Wronged individuals want revenge, society as a whole needs a deterrence, which is high enough to not make crime pay. Otherwise why work ten years for £100,000 if you could just nick it and then do a year inside and get rehabilitated.

The rehabilitation of the .13% is a very minor factor in comparison to the 98% kept on the straight and narrow in the first place by the deterrence. Rehabilitation is fine but not if it makes crime and prison a better option than being unemployed most of your life and ending up on the streets.

[iviehoff]

A high proportion of the people inside are repeat offenders, so rehabilitation is an important factor in keeping that 0.13% down to 0.13%. The weakness of rehabilitation these days, because of the populist reaction to it fanned by Michael Howard, whose intervention was entirely counterproductive except in attracting voters, is probably an important contributor to why that 0.13% is higher than it used to be, even though crime as a whole has been on a downward trend in all wealthy countries.

As for deterrence, for most ordinary people it is the risk of being caught and labelled a criminal that is the major deterrent, not the length of the sentence. But there is a stubborn minority who just aren't deterred by much, not even by the severe punishments we had in the past, because there is something different in their brains from most of the rest of us, maybe social pressures just don't work on them, or some have a kind of addictive reaction to the potential success of criminal enterprise. These are a substantial fraction of the people who end up inside and on whom the work of rehabilitation is most important to try and break the cycle.

At the end of the day, rehabilitation, for all it sounds soft, is actually in the broader interests of society to keep crime and enforcement costs down.

[beardy]

for most ordinary people it is the risk of being caught and labelled a criminal that is the major deterrent, not the length of the sentence.

maybe social pressures just don't work on them,

Here lies the root of our disagreement, we came from the different sides of town.

I come from the sort of area where a criminal record was nothing to be ashamed of, quite the contrary in fact. Also it was often acquired long before the consequences could be understood, if the consequences could ever be understood because it was only a barrier to a lifestyle which they were never going to get anyway!
The other option was the Army and criminal conviction was not a barrier back then.
When my friends came to the pub from Court, not only did they take off the suit but also the pack of lies that were part of the court game. The two important questions before going were "Will I get time" and "how much". If they didnt or it was short, then they were laughing at the Judges.
Another point that is denied by those not actually at the receiving end of the Justice system is just how arbitrary it all is, the main reason why people "re-offend" is because they are on the Police lists and so much easier to catch and convict. I know plenty who have been convicted for crimes they didnt commit after release (though that doesnt mean they hadnt done other things ), I know far, far more who were not convicted for crimes that they did commit.

[NUKe]

by far the highest percentage of the UK prison population are white young men from low socio economic back grounds. Who have been involved in petty crime. they are not thinking criminal masterminds, plotting revenge on Society or looking at how they can rule the criminal classes , They are in reality stupid kids with misaligned moral compasses, who haven't finished growing up. Round about 24 they seem to see the logic in settling down and drop out of the criminal Justice system.

I remember a case of housing estate in Sheffield which was plagued by joy riders. A local scrap merchant and business man had a brilliant idea, they took the offenders provided them with cars tools and guidance and sent them banger racing. The number of re offenders the police had to deal with fell by 97%. imagine if we had more of these imaginative schemes we could drastically reduce our prison population. I believe the scheme was eventually closed down, as the feeling amongst the local councillors was they were rewarding criminals .

I once offered to give a bike to the offender who had stolen it from me if he would ride a local charity event on it , it was one of these restorative justice programs and the officer said I couldn't do that, he didn't quite get my logic.

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[beardy]

Yes 82,000 men and only 4,000 women in UK prisons. They really should send her down long term just to improve the levels of female participation.
Being middle class and white should help improve the equality of opportunity stats a bit too.

[beardy]

I remember a case of housing estate in Sheffield which was plagued by joy riders. A local scrap merchant and business man had a brilliant idea, they took the offenders provided them with cars tools and guidance and sent them banger racing. The number of re offenders the police had to deal with fell by 97%. imagine if we had more of these imaginative schemes we could drastically reduce our prison population. I believe the scheme was eventually closed down, as the feeling amongst the local councillors was they were rewarding criminals .

They were though, werent they? These schemes should exist but be open to those in the same impoverished conditions who have resisted the temptations of crime as well as those who have succumbed. It sent a powerful message to the rest of us when the "bad boys" were allowed to smoke and go on trips to places that our parents couldnt afford for us, just as it sent a different powerful message when they came back with tales of what happened to them in borstal.

They are in reality stupid kids

Yes it was the stupid ones who got caught.

[Guy951]

for most ordinary people it is the risk of being caught and labelled a criminal that is the major deterrent, not the length of the sentence.

Am I the only one who finds the above assertion insulting. I don't have a criminal record, and it's not for the lack of opportunity. I, and I suspect, tens of thousands of people like me, have not committed criminal acts because I'm scared of getting a criminal record but because committing criminal acts is, by definition, just plain wrong.

I suspect that most ordinary people who don't have criminal records have "kept their noses clean" because they were brought up to be better than that.

[beardy]

because committing criminal acts is, by definition, just plain wrong.

It is and then later on it isnt.
Like homosexuality, just plain wrong until 1967 and beyond criticism in 2015.

[Guy951]

because committing criminal acts is, by definition, just plain wrong.

It is and then later on it isnt.
Like homosexuality, just plain wrong until 1967 and beyond criticism in 2015.

There's a huge difference between involuntary behaviour because of the way you're born and voluntary behaviour like deciding to break into someone's house

ETA: Homosexuality was only outlawed because of religious bigotry. Even "primitive" cultures regard theft and murder as wrong.

[beardy]

because committing criminal acts is, by definition, just plain wrong.

It is and then later on it isnt.
Like homosexuality, just plain wrong until 1967 and beyond criticism in 2015.

There's a huge difference between involuntary behaviour because of the way you're born and voluntary behaviour like deciding to break into someone's house :roll:

I agree which is why I was picking up on the claim that "committing criminal acts is, by definition, just plain wrong".
Somebody with homosexual desires does have the ability to not enact them.
Someone who is hungry doesnt have to steal.

Rolling eyes to somebody who you disagree with is offensive and just plain wrong by the way.

[beardy]

ETA: Homosexuality was only outlawed because of religious bigotry. Even "primitive" cultures regard theft and murder as wrong.

So we have laws that you dont agree with and laws that you do agree with, rather like the rest of us.

We obey those that we dont agree with mostly out of fear of legal sanctions.

[iviehoff]

for most ordinary people it is the risk of being caught and labelled a criminal that is the major deterrent, not the length of the sentence.

Am I the only one who finds the above assertion insulting. I don't have a criminal record, and it's not for the lack of opportunity. I, and I suspect, tens of thousands of people like me, have not committed criminal acts because I'm scared of getting a criminal record but because committing criminal acts is, by definition, just plain wrong.

I'm sorry you feel insulted by that. I suppose I should have said "or simply because they think it is wrong" in what I said, but I though that would be taken as read.

[irc]

Yes 82,000 men and only 4,000 women in UK prisons. They really should send her down long term just to improve the levels of female participation.
Being middle class and white should help improve the equality of opportunity stats a bit too.

Equality only applies in certain areas though. I see no campaign to increase the disgracefully low number of male primary school teachers. A place where kids from single parent households could see good role models.

Likewise, while it has been discussed there is no great urgency about to address the discrepancy between males and females making it to university.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/da ... university

As for prison populations - there is/was in Scotland a pilot scheme to divert woman offenders from prosecution depending on the type of offence and previous convictions etc. Why just woman?

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2012/06/2387/4

The Equality and Human Rights Commission has 50% more female staff than male staff.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/site ... 014-15.pdf

[meic]

Yes 82,000 men and only 4,000 women in UK prisons. They really should send her down long term just to improve the levels of female participation.
Being middle class and white should help improve the equality of opportunity stats a bit too.

Equality only applies in certain areas though. I see no campaign to increase the disgracefully low number of male primary school teachers. A place where kids from single parent households could see good role models.

Likewise, while it has been discussed there is no great urgency about to address the discrepancy between males and females making it to university.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/da ... university

As for prison populations - there is/was in Scotland a pilot scheme to divert woman offenders from prosecution depending on the type of offence and previous convictions etc. Why just woman?

http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2012/06/2387/4

The Equality and Human Rights Commission has 50% more female staff than male staff.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/site ... 014-15.pdf

If the family courts were a bit more equality minded when handing out custody, that would be the father who they lived with.

[iviehoff]

Yes 82,000 men and only 4,000 women in UK prisons. They really should send her down long term just to improve the levels of female participation.

Actually they already do a bit of that. I think incarceration rates of women are higher in relation to conviction rates than for men, and also more likely to be imprisoned for first offences. The occasional light sentence handed out for murdering an abusive partner, or to limit impacts on children, that the press occasionally makes a fuss about, is an exception to the general tendency.