Pulled Over By The Police

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TonyR
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by TonyR »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Nice story TonyR.
But you are in a (well trained in the right questions to ask and answer) position to be able to do that we the public are not :!:


Me? No! I'm just a member of the public too reposting a story originally told by a police officer on uk.rec.cycling as you would have seen if you'd read what I posted.
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661-Pete
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by 661-Pete »

I can only surmise that a few (and I hope it's only a few) of our loyal coppers have undergone their training in North Korea...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Flinders
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by Flinders »

I think the OP's exprience justifies a formal complaint.
I'm sufficiently wary of the police these days, that if one stopped me I'd get my camera out and record everything. I think that's rather sad, as I'm practically a pathological law-obeyer.
Phil Fouracre
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by Phil Fouracre »

Sad really, makes one a little cynical!
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
TonyR wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Nice story TonyR.
But you are in a (well trained in the right questions to ask and answer) position to be able to do that we the public are not :!:


Me? No! I'm just a member of the public too reposting a story originally told by a police officer on uk.rec.cycling as you would have seen if you'd read what I posted.

Sorry my bad.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
thirdcrank
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by thirdcrank »

Jughead wrote: ... . They asked why I wasn't wearing a hi-viz vest and a helmet. ...


For some reason - perhaps my failing memory - I'd got you down as a supporter of hi-viz. :?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Flinders wrote:I think the OP's exprience justifies a formal complaint.
I'm sufficiently wary of the police these days, that if one stopped me I'd get my camera out and record everything. I think that's rather sad, as I'm practically a pathological law-obeyer.

I nearly edited one of my posts and added "Sad" when I posted it.
I to used to be a pathological law - obeyer too.............now I am just pathological............ :lol:

All my life i have heard the words Optimist / Pessimist, they use optimist to describe themselves in good light, pessimist is normally used as a joke on self or a jibe at others.

I am a pessimist, an optimist thinks they can fly.................
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
rmurphy195
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by rmurphy195 »

Jughead wrote:Just after nine so had a front light, rear light and flashing lights on my rucksack. They told me that with oncoming traffic headlights I was a danger. They asked why I wasn't wearing a hi-viz vest and a helmet. Told them I have cycled for some 40+ years without either and wasnt going to start now. They told me to get off the road and cycle on the pavement as I was a danger to other road users.
I did as they instructed. Just as well as they had pulled into a side street a couple of hundred yards ahead to spy on me. Must have been a slow night for them. So helmets and hi-viz are not legal requirements. Can the police force you wear them if they deem you are a danger.


OK a few notes from my viewpoint, from a driving and cycling viewpoint.

I also used to cycle 40-odd years ago, the roads were far less crowded, and helmets and hi-viz just weren't around. But they are now, and the roads are more crowded, and being seen, more importantly being seen for what you are is probably more important now than it has ever been as a result.

Helmet - I "re-started" cycling at the age of 40-ish - about 25 years ago, and from the word go I used a helmet. Partly it has to be said as an example to my then 5-year old son, but also I figured I only had one head, and brain, and I needed them both for work. I've so far only used it twice in anger, once when I was walloped by a low overhanging branch on a local lane, and once when I sat up at traffic lights and bumped my head on the door mirror of a truck that had just pulled up beside me! Oh, plus the time I cycled having (I thought) recovered from an ear infection, and found my balance wasn't working after all!

Hi Viz jackets - A cycling friend of mine simply doesn't like hard-hats, but always keeps his hi-viz to hand. He covers a many miles a year on his bike as I do in the car!

Being seen for what you are - On dark local lanes I've found that flashing lights with no steady light on the rear of a bicycle looks uncannily like distant roadworks with flashing beacons rather than a much closer bicycle. A line of cyclists gives this impression even more strongly. I first noticed this effect when following a line of cyclists on a club ride back from the pub one summers evening - I was one of the group, acting as the sweeper at the time! However a steady light or two at each end of the bike, plus maybe the odd hi-viz band, and heel/pedal reflectors/bright clothing are very effective and almost shout "Hey, I'm on a bike"!

Flashing front lights - even worse than rear ones! Often angled badly so shine directly into my eyes when approaching from the other direction (or into my rear-view mirror if I've just overtaken such a bike while in the car) This does not improve anyone's road safety. If I'm on a bike it's not so bad, but in the car I sit lower so the effect is more pronounced. IMHO flashing front lights should be diffused, not a tight beam, and should be used in conjunction with a front light angled for the cyclist to see the road surface ahead.

But a pair of very bright headlamps? -- could it look like a distant car?

All effects mentioned above are really, really exacerbated if there is an oncoming vehicle with full headlights on or has just dipped them. Dimly flashing lights just disappear in the resulting blackness.

On one bike (which I no longer have) I used to have some white, self-adhesive reflectors attached to the wheel rims - unobtrusive by day but my goodness did they reflect car headlights at night! Made by Madison I think, haven't seen them around lately.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - especially with our more crowded roads, on dark nights in badly lit places you really need all the help you can get to be seen for what you are, but beware of camouflaging yourself as something else.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !
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661-Pete
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by 661-Pete »

I remember being told by an acquaintance that he'd passed me in his car, one dark night on a lonely country lane, and that my flashing rear was just the ticket to alert him that there was a cyclist ahead. How he recognised me in the dark I wasn't sure. No matter, a pat on the back for me, in other words.

So I've switched my rear to flashing ever since. Yes I know this is the opinion of just one motorist, but one supportive opinion is worth more than none.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
sirmy
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by sirmy »

There was an article in The Guardian last year (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2013/jan/10/cycling-high-visibility-safe-fluorescent) where it says (quoting from a report by the TRL)

" The results are interesting in that they show the previously held assertion that a bright reflective jacket will improve rider conspicuity may not always be true ...

[T]he message seems to be that the most conspicuous outfit will be dictated by the lighting conditions and local environment at the time, which may be extremely variable within the confines of even a fairly short ride."

So it appears that standing out from the crowd is the important thing so a flashing light in a sea of steady car lights may be more effective than dressing like a banana, while in some circumstances black is the best colour to wear
Tonyf33
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by Tonyf33 »

I've yet to be stopped at night whilst cycling in my black jacket and dark blue bib shorts or black longs...I don't expect to be stopped tbh, if I were and told I'm confusing things/making the road 'dangerous' somehow because I'm not wearing a helmet or hi-vis/light coloured clothing then I've got a full and ready answer for them.
Starting with thanks for your misguided advice but I've broken no laws so I'm off. 8)

What makes it so bloody difficult for other road users to spot that there's a cyclist ahead or to the side when they have lights on at night, the type/design alone is a massive giveaway all on its own. And how come in the OP's situation did the police think he was the danger? :twisted: Utterly ridiculous They mean that though they seemed to see him ok and stop him and found he wasn't breaking any laws they had to concoct some BS to cover the fact they can't be arris'd to police the roads and ensure that drivers what can't be bothered to look more than a few feet ahead and drive taking due care of other road users are stopped and pulled over..bunch of lazy, biased no-nowt idiots :evil:
TonyR
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by TonyR »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:All my life i have heard the words Optimist / Pessimist, they use optimist to describe themselves in good light, pessimist is normally used as a joke on self or a jibe at others.


I'm a pessimist. Pessimists are happy people. Things usually turn out much better for them than expected whereas optimists............ :wink:
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Cunobelin
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by Cunobelin »

TonyR wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:I have had this discussion, then asked for a fixed penalty...

That rather put the policeman on their back foot.

He said that he wished to give me a verbal warning, and when I explained that I required the ticket so I could appeal as he was in the wrong, he was even more reluctant.

In the end I simply checked that he recorded the fact that he had stopped me giving time and date

A short letter later I had an apology that I should not have been stopped, had done nothing wrong and that the officer had been made aware of his error


Reminds me of this wonderful story from a police officer on uk.rec.cycling a few years ago:

Whilst indulging in a spot of the obligatory DIY today I discovered I
needed few more bits and bobs, blowtorch, flux, joints etc...
I could not get the car out for a 'quick' 6 miles to the shop as the
community skip lorry was doing its thing so I took the jolly old - new -
racing bike for a spin.
Flashing along and wanting to turn right over the bridge system I
crossed the four lanes to take up position for the giratory road system.
Pulled up at the lights and waited, not bothered by and not bothering
anybody when up pulls a plod car, the window goes down on the drivers
side and a head pops out.

Young Plod - "Nice bike you've got there"
Me - "Yes"
Young Plod - "Going out for a ride"
Me - "Yes"
Young Plod - "Where you going"
Me - "Over there"
Young Plod - "You know your in the wrong lane"
Me - "Hows that"
Young Plod - "You should be over there" - Points to the near side lane
four over.
Me - "Can't turn right from there"
Young Plod - "It's dangerous to ride your bike in this lane"
Me - "Be a lot more dangerous turning right from over there"
Young Plod - "Is it yours"
Me - "What"
Young Plod - "The bike"
Me - "Yes"
Young Plod - "Your not wearing cycling clothing"
Me - "No" - wearing old combats, boots and sweatshirt, very dirty as had
been crawling around under the floorboards.
Young Plod - "Your not wearing a helmet either"
Me - "No"
Young Plod - "Just pull up over there for me"
Me - "Why"
Young plod - "I want a word with you"
Me - "What for"
Young Plod - "Don't argue"
Me - "About what"

At this point young plod had had enough and tripped his blue lights...

Young Plod - "get off"
Me - Feeling a bit like finding out how far he would go - "Have I done
something wrong"
Young Plod - "Like I said your in the wrong lane"
Me - "Is that a road traffic offence" - he should have picked up on this!
Young Plod - "Yes"
Me - "Oh" - Get off bike

Young Plod then gets out of car and tells me how he could do me for
dangerous cycling and how I should be wearing a cycle helmet.

Me - "Is that the law then - cycle helmets"
Young Plod - "No but its a lot safer"
Me - "There's never been a study that proved that you know"
Young Plod - "I cycle and I always wear a helmet"
Me - "That's your choice"
Young Plod - "Your not taking this very seriously"
Me - "Aren't I"
Young Plod - "Right - Lets see what you think about getting a fine for
dangerous cycling"
Me - "Your going to give me a ticket"
Young Plod - "I might if you continue like this"
Me - "Am I riding dangerously then"
Young Plod - "Yes"
Me - "How"
Young Plod - "You shouldn't be in the outside lane you should turn right
from the nearside kerb"
Me - "Oh, does it say that in the Road Traffic Act then"
Young Plod - "Do you have any ID"
Me - "What for"
Young Plod - "Because I asked you"
Me - "Are you going to give me a ticket then"
Young Plod - "I've had enough of this what's your name"
Me - "******"
Young Plod - "What do you do for a living"
Me - "I train people"
Young Plod - "Who for"
Me - "The police"
Young Plod - "Oh"
Me - "Does that make a difference"
Young Plod - "Err"
Me - "Do I get a copy of a stop form then"
Young Plod -"Err"
Me - "I really think I should get a copy of a stop form"
Young Plod -"Do we need to do that"
Me - "Yes"
Young Plod - writes out stop form - Name?
Me - "Sgt..."
Young Plod - Finishes the stop form - hands it to me
Me - "Next time you think of abusing your powers you might like to think
about who your talking to first"
Young Plod -"Yes Sarge"
Me - "Do I need to write to your skipper about this"
Young Plod - "No Sarge"
Me - "You think you've learnt your lesson then"
Young Plod - "Yes Sarge"
Me - "You think I should let you get away with this then"
Young Plod - "I think I made a mistake"
Me - "I think you did"
Young Plod - "Are you going to write to my Sergeant then Sarge"
Me - "I think he needs to know, don't you"
Me - "I'll tell you what, You tell your Sergeant and get them to call me
later"
Young Plod - "Yes Sergeant"
Me - "Be sure you do - or I will be writing officially"
Young Plod - "Yes Sergeant" Gets back in car and drives off.

Had chat with female sergeant later - turns out he did tell her and got
bulled for his actions.

Obviously the above is not a word for word but it's pretty close.


It was that experience that inspired me to ask for the ticket
BearOnWheels
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by BearOnWheels »

Two points:-

When pulled over like this (or indeed anytime you are stopped by the police), always ask under what piece of legislation you are being stopped or what offence you are being charged with. If they can't name it or can't tell you, you are perfectly within your rights to say 'well, unless there was anything else, I'm off then'. You are a citizen going about your lawful business; (alright the terrorism legislation is different, but I don't think that is in this league)

Complain: in writing to the Police force. Check the website and follow the requirements down to the letter. As much detail as you can, weather, road conditions, what you were wearing (or not).Its really important that this sort of bullying ( and thats what it is) is stopped and the officers concerned given 'words of advice'. Abuse of legal powers is a serious matter.

I wonder is it worth CTC getting some advice from Liberty on this sort of thing? A set of standard advice would be very useful!
thirdcrank
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Re: Pulled Over By The Police

Post by thirdcrank »

I wonder how often this sort of thing happens. :? ie The police stopping a cyclist who isn't breaking the law to advise them on some aspect of "road safety" or to give an informal warning that they are committing a non-existent offence. I'm not referring to offences which somebody thinks the police should not be enforcing.

If it's frequent, then we are in the bizarre situation that against a background of a collapse in traffic enforcement, time is being found to devote to something which is hardly a policing priority.

I presume there was a bit of a surge in this type of activity when media attention was briefly focused on the deaths of cyclists in London earlier this year. Afaik, the OP is in Scotland.

I've no experience of it happening, from either side, so if it's happening with any frequency, I presume it's fairly recent and if so, may be increasing in frequency.
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