Problem in the Peak District

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Benethi
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Problem in the Peak District

Post by Benethi »

Not entirely sure where I should put this, whether Mountain Biking, Campaigning or the Tea Shop, so feel free to move it!

I got this email from the Ramblers Association today:
Hello Ben,

There’s a path in the Peaks that I love. It’s called Chapelgate. It runs along Rushup Edge from Edale to Chapel-En-Le-Frith. When I stand on it and look across at Mam Tor and Kinder Scout, my heart soars.

But last time I did this, a motorbike whizzed past ruining my peace and nearly knocked me over. I clambered up the path a bit further and I couldn’t, the path had been completely destroyed by 4x4s.

This needs to stop

The Peak District National Park want to preserve this path by banning 4x4s and other off-road vehicles from using it. I think that’s a great idea. Can you help me, by showing your support for a ban?

Please email the Peak District National Park supporting a ban on off-road vehicles using Chapelgate.

Thanks,

Anastasia French,
Campaigns Officer


I usually ignore these things for the most part, but I was a bit unsure about exactly what the campaign meant, and it annoyed me a little - what does off road vehicles mean?
So I sent a reply:
Hi,

Just want something clarifying with this - when you say 'off road vehicles', do you actually mean motorised vehicles?

Should people be allowed to drive their Mondeo down it (Sat Nav error?!).
And more to the point, should mountain bikes be allowed?

As it stands I certainly won't be signing it!

Thanks,
Ben.


I got this reply back:
Ben,

The consultation is about all motorvehicles (except emergency services and water companies).

Mountain bikes are not exempt from the proposals.

More information can be found http://consult.peakdistrict.gov.uk/file ... tement.pdf

Thanks,

Anastasia

The consultation is about all motorvehicles, but mountain bikes are not exempt from the proposals? What does that mean? Possibly she just mistyped this. The linked document does state 'mechanically propelled vehicles' which seems to be used a lot round here, and while also rather ambiguous (confused me the first time I saw it), apparently does just mean motorvehicles (why don't they just say that?!). Anyway, I certainly think the campaign should be redone, before someone does get the wrong idea...

To be honest, I'm a bit tentative about anything like this anyway. While I certainly like the idea of banning motorvehicles from places (certainly on all the roads, where they cause a lot more problem in my view :twisted: ) I prefer to be more open-minded and less selfish. After all, even if this doesn't include mountain bikes at the moment, next it could do. And then maybe walkers could be further along the line...

Just curious as to what anyone else's views are here.
Last edited by Benethi on 26 Jun 2013, 8:08am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vorpal
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Vorpal »

Mountain bikes are not exempt from the proposals.


seems like mountain bikes are included in the ban? I think I would ask for clarification (again). Or a list of vehicle types to be banned.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Saw a program on TV about this type of thing.
Long and short of it that there was a group of ramblers used a lane which was also classified as open to all traffic, UCR's or Byway etc,etc.
You have to change the use or close the way (temp repair order) to stop traffic :?:
Its like trying to stop cyclist using a Bridle Path......how would you do that by downgrading to a footpath, then nobody uses it because its miles from nowhere goes to and from nowhere in particular, then it is not used and becomes overgrown and is eventually scrapped by council :x

These rambler types usually quote its noisey and dangerous and disturbs the peace etc, its basicly THEY dont like it so they try to find a way to ban it.

Dont get me wrong walked the pennine way several times west highland way ten tors etc,etc, Been up every hill in the dartmoor national park, and covered every ridable path etc on dartmoor on my bike.
But there is room for all, if you go to wales or the peak district the farmers round up sheep with motorbikes, there are no motorbikes on dartmoor but farmers using quads whilst on thier mobile phone..............
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meic
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by meic »

If it is a BOAT or RUPP, ie one of the very rare places where motor vehicles can have off-road fun, then I would not support it.
There are so few places for them to play and if they dont have legal places they will do more illegal driving/riding.

If it isnt such a route open to all traffic, isnt it illegal anyway?

I dont know if the rights can be taken off them, they will certainly put up a good resistance to it as they have so few places left.

I have a whole Forest here where I can roam at will by foot, horse or bike. The motorbikes and cars can use about half a mile of the tracks in it.
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Benethi
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Benethi »

It's good to see people on here can be reasonable about something like this, and actually (for once at least) give a 'pro-motorist' view.

You have basically echoed my thoughts, though I don't like to give too much in the way of opinions when I'm fully aware that I don't know all the ins and outs.

As we all know, any group has its members who don't know how to share, and have no respect for other people. There are people in cars who behave like idiots, there are people on motorbikes and quadbikes who behave like idiots, and there are people on mountain bikes and road bikes who behave like idiots. From my experience mountain bikers are more courteous and friendly than most, which is one reason I like to go out with MTB clubs more than road clubs. I see there is another thread currently running that complained about horse riders and dog walkers. Again, from my experience I can't see how anyone could reasonably complain about them as a group, though obviously you will always get the odd idiot. We're all human. As cyclists, we suffer as much as anyone for being 'all tarred with the same brush', and I think it's a shame if we make the same mistake.

PS. I don't think it's a boat 'cause there's not much water up there, fairly sure she said it was a motorbike ;)
"Frankly, I’m suspicious of anyone who has a strong opinion on a complicated issue" - Scott Adams
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Adam S
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Adam S »

The proposals are regarding motor vehicles only: http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/news/cur ... gate-track
I suspect she misunderstood that by 'mountain bike' you meant a pushbike and thought you were referring to an off-road motorbike.

meic wrote:If it is a BOAT or RUPP, ie one of the very rare places where motor vehicles can have off-road fun, then I would not support it.

Chapel Gate is a Byway Open to All Traffic (BOAT). All Roads Used as Public Paths (RUPPs) have now been reclassified, either as BOATs or as lesser rights of way, and the term is now obsolete. Some unsurfaced minor roads also cross the countryside and carry (motor) vehicular rights.

meic wrote:I dont know if the rights can be taken off them

This can be done by means of a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO). Many routes are already off limits because of such orders.

I can understand both sides of the argument, maybe a permit system like the Gatescarth Pass route is a responsible alternative to a complete ban: http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visiting ... gatescarth
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by snibgo »

I suspect that Anastasia / Anastacia (doesn't she know how to spell her own name?) may be confused into thinking that Mountain Bikes are motorised.

The battle between Ramblers and 4x4s over RUPPs, BOATs, Restricted Byways (or whatever they are called today) has been going on for decades. Probably since the dawn of the infernal combustion engine.

Around here, most greenways are either impassable by 4x4 because of tractor ruts, or are (illegally) blocked by the farmer who owns the property. I think that's a shame, because it's the best chance for owners of Chelsea Tractors or ancient Land Rovers to discover what they can really do. There are very few places that motorists can drive off-road, compared to the miles of footpaths, and I think they should be left alone.

From a cyclist's point of view, the question is whether they want to turn the road into a bridleway (allowing pedal bikes) or footpath (allowing pedal bikes only by gracious permission of the land owner)?
Adam S
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Adam S »

snibgo wrote: From a cyclist's point of view, the question is whether they want to turn the road into a bridleway (allowing pedal bikes) or footpath (allowing pedal bikes only by gracious permission of the land owner)?

The proposal seems to be to prohibit motor vehicles by means of a Traffic Regulation Order. That wouldn't affect the classification of the right of way as a BOAT, it would just restrict the traffic that can use it.
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Benethi
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Benethi »

snibgo wrote:I suspect that Anastasia / Anastacia (doesn't she know how to spell her own name?)


Apologies that must have been me when I copied it across, now corrected!

may be confused into thinking that Mountain Bikes are motorised.


I do find it hard to believe that someone who goes walking regularly could be unaware what a mountain bike is, but yes that is the impression I got...
"Frankly, I’m suspicious of anyone who has a strong opinion on a complicated issue" - Scott Adams
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Non english speaking (2nd language) dont know what a "Push Bike" is either :?:
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
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iviehoff
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by iviehoff »

snibgo wrote:Around here, most greenways are either impassable by 4x4 because of tractor ruts, or are (illegally) blocked by the farmer who owns the property. I think that's a shame, because it's the best chance for owners of Chelsea Tractors or ancient Land Rovers to discover what they can really do. There are very few places that motorists can drive off-road, compared to the miles of footpaths, and I think they should be left alone.

It is also a shame when a greenway ceases to be green any longer because, instead of being seasonally used by a few locals, Chelsea tractor owners from as far away as Belgium* tear it up in the winter and allow the green surface to be washed away and erosion to set in so it becomes a stony rutted mess you can no longer ride on a bicycle.

If greenways are to remain greenways, now that 4x4s are so extensively owned by people who use them as leisure vehicles, regulation is needed to ensure that such roads survive. Their mere existence requires the passage of vehicular traffic. But excessive vehicular traffic destroys them. For example when I first travelled the BOAT that runs N/S across Radnor Forest 15 years or so ago it was a greenway. Now the green has been completely removed due to usage in the winter by recreational 4x4 drivers, erosion set in, and it is now a stony mess. That destruction was legal. I have also encountered illegal 4x4 rallies on tracks without motor RoW status in Radnor Forest, and even people holding quad bike races on courses they had just worn into the hillside.

*Yes I once encountered a troupe of about 10 Belgian 4x4s on a greenway of bridleway status in the Peak District "we found an internet site that said you can drive it". They refused to accept the evidence of the map I showed them that they were not on a route open to motorised vehicles. They also didn't believe me that they would find the road ahead deliberately blocked by a stationary tractor which had been carefully placed where it was not possible to get past it in a 4x4. But in about 20 minutes, when they had unbogged themselves from the section of track they were ruining, they were about to discover that I wasn't a devious liar.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
All working correctly........someone reports that the lane is worn by overuse or heavy rain (as we know even unrutted lanes on a slope get washed out to expose well 2' deep rutes with sharp rocks, the weather changes every year) and then the council slaps a TRO on it till repaired or resilted.
Where I live they were pretty hot on it when me and my mates were "Green Laneing" motorycycles.
And all the TRO's were all through being washed out by heavy rain, makes sense that ALL our lanes are hedged with 6-8' heges in Devon, nice funnels for rain off fields :wink:

Even farmers tracktors rutt the lane and they are working too.
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Richard Mann
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Richard Mann »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi, Non english speaking (2nd language) dont know what a "Push Bike" is either :?:


Push bike = bike. It's just an archaic english term, sometimes used for emphasis by people (and usually men) over the age of 40
Adam S
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Adam S »

Richard Mann wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi, Non english speaking (2nd language) dont know what a "Push Bike" is either :?:


Push bike = bike. It's just an archaic english term, sometimes used for emphasis by people (and usually men) over the age of 40

I quite like it (and i'm not over 40), just springs to mind more rapidly than 'pedal cycle' where 'bike' is too ambiguous. Maybe just a term I heard growing up. I'll be aware not everyone may have the term before I use it in future.
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Benethi
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Re: Problem in the Peak District

Post by Benethi »

I sent her a reply this morning, but got an automatic reply back saying she was out of office till Tuesday.
Thanks for the reply Anastasia,

I do think that this needs making clearer on the campaign before someone gets the wrong idea!

I presume you meant mountain bikes are exempt? Although if 'the consultation is about all motorvehicles' then mountain bikes do not need to be exempt as such as obviously they are not motorised!

I started a discussion about this on the CTC forum, (hope you don't mind me having quoted your email, I'll happily remove it if you wish)...replies so far have surprised me in being fairly pro letting motorists use the path (unlike cyclists to ever be pro motorist!) but thought you might find it interesting anyway.

Kind Regards,
Ben.


Yes, I've directed her here so best behaviour everyone! ;)
"Frankly, I’m suspicious of anyone who has a strong opinion on a complicated issue" - Scott Adams
Photos:
Scott's Travels 2010
Sparky's Travels 2012
Sparky's Travels 2013
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