Poynton regeneration scheme

thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Poynton regeneration scheme

Post by thirdcrank »

I've no experience or first hand knowledge of any of these experiments, although I hope they are successful. If they do succeed, I cannot see how it will be through uncertainty.

I think most people would agree that certainty leads to traffic travelling more quickly. In the right circumstances that should be OK eg on an uncongested motorway, where careful drivers probably feel more able to drive at upper end of what's legal, even though others may routinely do that speed or higher, no matter what the conditions are like.

By the same token, careful drivers will drive more slowly or stop when the situation is uncertain but there are plenty of examples where others will bash on regardless: dazzled by sunshine; reduced visibility in fog; windscreen obstructed by snow, ice or condensation; blind bends and summits; dark rural roads; vulnerable road users present or likely to be. It may be that these people are sometimes slowed down by the weight of traffic, but in between they tend to take every opportunity to speed up.

IMO snow illustrates what I'm saying. In snowy conditions, a careful driver would adjust their driving accordingly. Some drivers are panicked. perhaps through inexperience aggravated by the media hype, so they may drive extra carefully. Some drivers demonstrate their prowess by not altering their style of driving or even speeding up whenever they can.

A less fraught example is the unmarked junction, especially in urban areas. I suspect there are few of these where most drivers, including some who might be considered careful, establish and follow an informal set of priorities. In other words, they replace uncertainty with a false certainty.

I don't understand how anybody might believe that other road arrangements might make a difference without reinforcement.

I'd suggest that rather than uncertainty, what's needed is total certainty: certainty that bad driving will attract inevitable and condign sanctions, especially anywhere where vulnerable road users share space with more powerful modes.

Holding the breath is not recommended because the trend is in the other direction.
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Poynton regeneration scheme

Post by Pete Owens »

I don't think shared space can be called experimental any more. It is well over 20 years since Hans Monderman first started applying the principles that had previously been restricted to Woonerf to real roads - starting with the village of Makkinga:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaLhbbtmlE
At every stage it was said that it wouldn't work, that it was dangerous - just as people did in Poynton.
Then when a scheme is introduced and appears to work well - just as the video shows in Poynton - thay say it is an accident waiting to happen - just wait till people get used to it - till they start driving BMWs etc.
Then the when a scheme is shown to work - usually reducing crashes dramatically the opponents will admit that OK it worked there but but somehow that location was somehow special and it couldn't work anywhere else.
First they argued that it could only be applied in very low traffic situations.
Then it was used successfully in larger and larger towns with busier junctions... and they argued it couldn't work outside the NL
Then it was ipplied in other countries ... and they argued that it couldn't work in the UK.
Then it was used in villages in Suffolk ... and they argued that it would only work in quiet villages.
Then more schemes started to be implemented in busier locations ... and at each stage it was claimed that it could not possibly work in any busier location.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Poynton regeneration scheme

Post by thirdcrank »

My ignorance in referring to experiments - although I think we are some way from describing this as a settled policy for future developments or we'd not be discussing it here.

All I'm saying is that uncertainty on its own doesn't always "work" in the UK. I've put that in quotes because it's such a misused word. There's no consensus on what can be described as working. Nobody likes to see casualties but casualty reduction has taken us down a route that has not helped cyclists. A feeling of being safe is invaluable - so long as it's not misplaced.

I've tried to illustrate that point with a couple of wide-spread types of uncertainty which exist already: rural roads and unmarked junctions in urban areas. We've recently had a thread about a child gravely injured by a driver on a country lane who wasn't prevented from driving too fast for the conditions by uncertainty. On the plus side, the judge in the High Court held that the driver was negligent in injuring the child. There's megabucks at stake and future cases to be so the insurance company is taking this to the Court of Appeal. No matter what the outcome of the appeal, it won't make her better.

We are only discussing human behaviour so there's nothing here that cannot be changed. I don't believe that engineering solutions will bring about that change without reinforcement.
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PaulCumbria
Posts: 461
Joined: 23 Mar 2012, 1:52pm
Location: Kendal

Re: Poynton regeneration scheme

Post by PaulCumbria »

Absolutely right, Pete. I think a lot of old-school engineers are very reluctant indeed to have their lifetimes' work upended by these ideas.

The real disgrace is that, while we continue to spend big money on roadbuilding, we STILL are failing to implement shared-space schemes on anything other than an 'experimental' basis - even though the experiment definitely works, while roadbuilding our way out of congestion is an experiment that demonstrably failed decades ago.
John Holiday
Posts: 528
Joined: 2 Nov 2007, 2:01pm

Re: Poynton regeneration scheme

Post by John Holiday »

I recently attended a Sustainable Transport Conference in Preston, where one of the Enginneers involved in designing & implementing the scheme provided some background detail.
Although there was a deal of sceptism initially,most residents & users are delighted how it has worked.
Poynton is now a much more pleasant place to live.
Hopefully,many more 'Traffic Engineers' will take the lessons on board & introduce similar schemes elsewhere.
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