Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Ribblehead
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by Ribblehead »

snibgo wrote:My understanding is that paying an FPN means the person hasn't admitted a crime, and won't be prosectuted for one. He won't be on a database as having committed a crime.

If a person ignores the FPN, the case will go to court where he could plead guilty, or may be found guilty or not guilty.

If he pleads or is found guilty, the penalty will be more then the FPN.


Hmmmm. How does it boost their performance if no crime is being committed. Eight officers seems like an awfully large deployment if they won't actually be 'solving' any crimes to contribute to their success rate.
snibgo
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by snibgo »

The CDF confirms that paying a FPN means "no crime".

The police have more targets than simply prosecuting crime. As thircrank often reminds us, they might have local panels that demand crackdowns on pavement cycling, for example.

The police count FPNs. For example, the Met Cycle Task Force issues 31% of its FPNs to cyclists.
thirdcrank
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by thirdcrank »

Stats:
The word "crime" has a number of meanings. In the context of Home Office Stats, "crimes" are the generally more serious offences for which the returns to the Home Office include reported, recorded and detected offences. Around here at least, these stats are known as "pre-court" stats., afaik because court results do not effect them. There has been a bit of a growth in offences being treated as statistical crimes where the reporting and recording are only going to happen if there's a detection (drug dealing being probably the most obvious example.) Most summary offences, including traffic stuff, is not"crime" in that way, even though they are criminal offences. (I have no interest in an argument over semantics.)

Proceedings for summary offences are recorded but in much less detail - convictions, cautions, written warnings, tickets. These are "post-court" stats, even if nobody goes to court. These are really just a measure of police activity, since they give no picture of the level of offending.

Criminal records
A fixed penalty notice can most certainly result in a record - the most obvious case being where the offence is endorsable. In those cases, any ticket is provisional, pending the production of the driving licence and if the driver is in totting-up territory, the provisional FPN will not be confirmed and it will be business as usual at court.

Convictions for summary offences such as pavement cycling have only ever been recorded locally. The deciding factor as to whether anybody gets a nationally recorded criminal record has always been the taking of their fingerprints, which only used to be done for "fingerprintable" offences. For many years, this was the only certain way of matching somebody with their record. More recently, and after my day, fingerprints and DNA were taken following any arrest (including somebody arrested under the "general arrest condition" ) and retained, even if there were no proceedings. There have been restrictions made on that but I am not up-to-date.

Getting a ticket
Anybody getting any sort of fixed penalty notice should check to see what offence is alleged. I see that there is a general assumption that the tickets which triggered this thread were for offences under the Highways Act 1835 (driving a carriage on a footpath alongside a road ...) Te paved area between the buildings where the posse is pictured is not such a footpath. On the other hand, it looks as though it is necessary to cross one to reach that area. When we had something similar before, I unsuccessfully tried to find what it was that made it OK to drive across a footway. It's too late at night now to dig out the relevant bit of the HC but for motor vehicles it says something along the lines that this is OK to gain legitimate access to property. For whatever reason, there is no such exception for cyclists crossing a footway. In any event, that paved area doesn't belong to the cyclists and if the owners treat cyclists as trespassers or if there is anything else of that nature, then since cyclists crossing the footway might not be legally gaining access by crossing the footway I'm not sure of the legal position. This is one of the reasons why I was hoping the CDF would take a bit more interest in something that is becoming pretty regular.

(NB I retired in 1997, so a lot of water etc. The most obvious change since then has been the replacement of the quill pen with the abacus. :wink: Some of the detail may have changed, but I think the main points remain the same.)

=========================================================
PS Tickets for wellow line parking etc, and the London Congestion Charge are civil penalties, nothing to do with what I've posted above. Traffic wardens, who used to be police employees have been replaced by Civil Enforcement Officers emplyed by the relevant council.
Ayesha
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by Ayesha »

macarthurseal wrote:Was walking (thankfully) my bike round SOAS in London looking for a place to lock it up this morning, when I came across this police snare, in the process of fining 3 or 4 people every few minutes. A fine use of the time of 8 police officers (two on bikes were out of shot), when we are now well into an upsurge of robberies and burgleries on account of the recession in London.

Image

Apparently the other side of this pedestrianised area there is a cyclists dismount sign, but the side the police are on has a bike path leading directly on to it abruptly disappearing but with no sign to dismount. The police could see people cycling towards them on the road, but rather than warning them, they would let them get on to the paved area before telling them to stop and fining them.

Legally dubious I think too - would a paved street count as a footway legally, since it does not run alongside a road. In any case it is about 20ft wide and really there is no problem pedestrians and cyclists sharing it.

My main question is why do police do this? Is it just an easy way to get credit for enforcement or what?


Legally dubious.

Firstly, I would ask for some research into possible admissions into the local hospital A&E dept of a pedestrian who was hit by a cyclist.
Secondly, I would argue as per the shape and colour of the 'Cyclists dismount' sign. Being a rectangular sign with white lettering on a blue background, at last knowledge, that is an 'Information' sign. The Red circular sign with a black bicycle on a white background is the 'No cycling', 'prohibitive' sign.
Thirdly, was there an additional rectangular blue sign saying "Police check in operation"?
Richard Mann
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by Richard Mann »

It's a former street. It's just possible that the closure order banned bikes, but I'd be pretty surprised (people don't tend to impose unnecessary restrictions unless there's good reason).

Just because it's paved, that doesn't mean that a footway magically appears across it's mouth. Remember that under the terms of the act footway has to be alongside a road and set aside for the exclusive use of pedestrians. If the road is still open (to bikes or deliveries) then it's not exclusive.

I'd like to see a photo of any signs; it's been a while since I was down that way. The OP said "Cyclists Dismount" but that's unconfirmed. Most likely there's a temporary sign in conjunction with building works, in which case it definitely isn't police business (unless someone's been enthusiastic enough to make a temporary order).
xpc316e
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by xpc316e »

Whilst I have some admiration for those dishing out advice as to the legality of signs etc., why not just accept that the vast majority of pedestrians who are scared witless by riders whizzing through a gap when they least expect it do not have their opinions of cyclists improved?
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Mike Sales
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by Mike Sales »

xpc316e wrote:Whilst I have some admiration for those dishing out advice as to the legality of signs etc., why not just accept that the vast majority of pedestrians who are scared witless by riders whizzing through a gap when they least expect it do not have their opinions of cyclists improved?


I completely accept that frightening pedestrians is a bad thing and would never do it, but I would be very annoyed if I was done for cycling where had I thought it was legal, and later found out I was quite right.
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snibgo
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by snibgo »

I have zero tolerance for cyclists who scare pedestrians witless, whether or not cycling is legally allowed at that location. There was no indication in the OP that this occurred.
MartinC
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by MartinC »

xpc316e wrote:Whilst I have some admiration for those dishing out advice as to the legality of signs etc., why not just accept that the vast majority of pedestrians who are scared witless by riders whizzing through a gap when they least expect it do not have their opinions of cyclists improved?


You seem to be suggesting that people should pay fines that have no basis in law simply because it's related to something you disapprove of. I disapprove of you expressing this contempt for the rule of law so I'm fining you £60. Please send me the money immediately. :D
thirdcrank
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by thirdcrank »

MartinC wrote: ... You seem to be suggesting that people should pay fines that have no basis in law simply because it's related to something you disapprove of. I disapprove of you expressing this contempt for the rule of law so I'm fining you £60. Please send me the money immediately. :D
If it's a fine it's only payable to the Crown. Make the cheque out payable to HM QE2 and don't forget the £15-00 victims' surcharge. :wink:
xpc316e
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by xpc316e »

I see cyclists potentially getting off any FPNs issued at this spot because of glitches with the signs etc. as being no different to wealthy celebrities who engage Mr Loophole to get them off their speeding fines and points on the grounds that the signs were of the wrong size, too far apart, the radar gun wasn't properly calibrated etc.

I have a low opinion of people who will use clever tactics to get away with misdemeanours/crimes when they ought to have done the decent thing and complied with the sign (whether legal, or not) in the first place. Pedestrians and drivers already hold us in low esteem, and we really ought to be working hard to improve our standing by behaving well.
Riding a Dahon Jetstream P9 folder, an early 90s Vision R30 above seat steered recumbent, and the latest acquisition, a Haibike Sduro Trekking 4.0 electric bike.
thirdcrank
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by thirdcrank »

xpc316e

As one of the posters who has rarely been slow to explain my understanding of the law, I'll presume your earlier post was directed, at least in part, at me.

The events on this occasion have left me confused because I cannot immediately see what offence was the subject of the enforcement. That's one reason why I suggested that anybody getting a ticket should check to see what offence was alleged. Others have suggested it's cycling on a footpath, in which case, it's hard from the pic to see that anybody is guilty of it as the police are staking out a paved area that looks like some sort of private land (presumably owned by the SOAS.)

I understand your frustration when people seem to "get off" through legal twiddly bits but that's how the system works. In some cases, the ticket is given for the wrong offence, even though the alleged offender's conduct amounts to an offence eg, we did have a thread about a cyclist cycling on a motorway in Scotland who got a ticket for a motoring offence. In those cases, the potential defendants have been saved by police incompetence. If they are not committing any offence at all, it seems a bit ominous to suggest that they should accept a ticket with a stiff upper lip. It's then only a short step to people getting tickets for things like ignoring a Trespassers will be prosecuted sign.

In any event, I'm sorry if you feel that I am conniving to help people break the law. I do try to explain it as I understand it in an even-handed way.
snibgo
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by snibgo »

xpc316e wrote:I see cyclists potentially getting off any FPNs issued at this spot because of glitches with the signs etc. as being no different to wealthy celebrities who engage Mr Loophole to get them off their speeding fines and points on the grounds that the signs were of the wrong size, too far apart, the radar gun wasn't properly calibrated etc.

I have a low opinion of people who will use clever tactics to get away with misdemeanours/crimes when they ought to have done the decent thing and complied with the sign (whether legal, or not) in the first place. Pedestrians and drivers already hold us in low esteem, and we really ought to be working hard to improve our standing by behaving well.

Thirty or forty years ago, I would have agreed with you. Cyclists shouldn't ride on the pavement, full stop.

These days cyclists are allowed to ride on many pavements. If this is one of those pavements, then it isn't a question of getting off by a loophole: if they are allowed, then they are allowed, full stop.

I do agree that we should behave well, and at the top of that list I'd put, "Don't frighten pedestrians."
Malaconotus
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by Malaconotus »

xpc316e wrote:I see cyclists potentially getting off any FPNs issued at this spot because of glitches with the signs etc. as being no different to wealthy celebrities who engage Mr Loophole to get them off their speeding fines and points on the grounds that the signs were of the wrong size, too far apart, the radar gun wasn't properly calibrated etc.


No, this is like getting an FPN for doing over 20mph in a 30mph zone.
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horizon
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Re: Fixed Penalty Notice Bonanza

Post by horizon »

xpc316e wrote:I see cyclists potentially getting off any FPNs issued at this spot because of glitches with the signs etc. as being no different to wealthy celebrities who engage Mr Loophole to get them off their speeding fines and points on the grounds that the signs were of the wrong size, too far apart, the radar gun wasn't properly calibrated etc.

I have a low opinion of people who will use clever tactics to get away with misdemeanours/crimes when they ought to have done the decent thing and complied with the sign (whether legal, or not) in the first place. Pedestrians and drivers already hold us in low esteem, and we really ought to be working hard to improve our standing by behaving well.


xpc: you may be right but this thread is about the legality or otherwise of the so called offence. We may indeed need another thread entitled "Should cyclists do the decent thing etc" but this isn't it. Even better, if a cyclist "gets off" but still feels guilty then they can always give the equivalent amount to charity. There are lots of reasons for the law to be 100% clear about cycling and this thread is about that clarification.
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