Getting Rid Of (Some/Few) Road White Lines

[Psamathe]

Interesting bit on Radio 4 Today program this morning (3 Feb 2016) at between 08:50 and 09:00.

There seems an experiment going on with removing some white lines from roads. I was not 100% "with things" but from what I picked-up, theory is that without some white lines on some appropriate roads motor vehicle drivers take more care and pay more attention. They had somebody from Norfolk Highways on who what done initial experiments on some roads where there are a lot of cyclists. They leave the cycle lane marking white line but remove the centre white line and early indications are that drivers do take more care.

My initial gut feeling is that without a centre white line drivers might not feel so reserved about moving across decently. i.e. maybe crossing the white line gives a driver a feeling of "being where they should not be" so a bit of reservation about crossing it and a subconscious pressure to not go "too far" and subconscious pressure to "get back where you should be", all meaning closer passes with quicker pull back ins. Without the centre white line that subconscious pressure might not be there or lessened. But I'm guessing here and that was not what the program suggested.

Then a guy from the AA who clearly had not listened to a word the Highways person said and the AA guy started talking about the danger of removing white lines from motorways and seemed to have assumed the mention of cyclists also meant removing the white lines identifying cycle lanes. Makes you wonder how anything gets anywhere when people (e.g. AA guy) just don't even bother to listen to proposals and what is being tried.

BUT, I was not 100% awake so if anybody listens to it on podcast or iPlayer and I've got the wrong end of things please do correct me. Radio 4 Toady sometime between 08:50 and 09:00 (can't eb exact) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03hd7v2 (on iPlayer or download as mp3).

Ian

[Psamathe]

Just seen a newspaper article on the same idea/research http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/motoring-news/road-markings-removing-white-lines-may-cause-motorists-to-slow-down-research-finds-a6850216.html (easier than downloading/listening to an mp3).

Ian

[Vorpal]

There have been a number of studies that found that the removal of *some* road markings, particularly central lines, slows traffic.

I haven't read the actual studies, but I've seen reports in various places http://road.cc/content/news/135156-road ... tudy-finds

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/c ... ces-speeds

I recall that a study in the Netherlands had similar results, though I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

[squeaker]

Today program at roughly 02:54:00
Edmund King (AA) dangerously close to saying modern drivers needed 'aids', but managed to swerve away at the last minute

[Vorpal]

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/centre-line-removal-trial.pdf

I also found the SWOV (Netherlands) report I was thinking of. http://www.swov.nl/rapport/R-2006-26.pdf

The pertinent part is section 5.2. Stick that (or the whole thing if you like) in a translator.

That also refers to another SWOV report https://www.swov.nl/rapport/R-2006-13.pdf which is about design for intuitive speed limits, and discusses the influence various aspects of infrastructure have on intuitive speed limits. It doesn't go into detail about road markings, but there is an acceptance in this report that road markings increase speed.

[mercalia]

"White lines along the centre of roads have been removed in parts of the UK, with some experts saying it encourages motorists to slow down. So is it the beginning of the end for the central road marking?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35480736


hmm seems like will make motorists use more of the road and act carelessly?

[TonyR]

Have a read up on Hans Monderman and Naked Streets. Counter-intuitively it does work and has been used to good effect in the Netherlands ans some places in the UK. The UK flagship is probably Exhibition Road in London ( the one the Science Museum is on)

[mjr]

The UK flagship is probably Exhibition Road in London ( the one the Science Museum is on)

Which is a very scary thought, with motorists running (driving?) amok there when I've ridden along it. Its main saving graces for cycling are a 20mph limit and that there's relatively few kerbs so you can usually get away from the really nasty motorists and hide behind the street furniture and parked cars! https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... tion-road/

Hopefully the line removal trials will turn out rather better than that.

[John Holiday]

This suggestion works on the premise that 'uncertainty' creates caution in the average driver.
Unfortunately,the average driver is really not that bright & doesn't react in this way,despite the findings from similar schemes in the Netherlands.
For example,whilst cycle training recently, we were teaching the children to move out slightly from 'secondary' position when passing a road junction.
A driver approaching turned right across the lead rider,nearly knocking her off. When challenged,he said 'I didn't know what she was going to do'.
In otherwords,he didn't react cautiously, but drove on at risk to other more vulnerable road users.

[squeaker]

For example,whilst cycle training recently, we were teaching the children to move out slightly from 'secondary' position when passing a road junction.
A driver approaching turned right across the lead rider,nearly knocking her off. When challenged,he said 'I didn't know what she was going to do'.
In otherwords,he didn't react cautiously, but drove on at risk to other more vulnerable road users.

Which is a good example of why 'presumed liability' for road traffic incidents is required in the UK, now!

[Vorpal]

This suggestion works on the premise that 'uncertainty' creates caution in the average driver.
Unfortunately,the average driver is really not that bright & doesn't react in this way,despite the findings from similar schemes in the Netherlands.

But *evidence* in the UK is that when central lines are removed, traffic is slower, and fewer crashes occur.

[MikeF]

"White lines along the centre of roads have been removed in parts of the UK, with some experts saying it encourages motorists to slow down. So is it the beginning of the end for the central road marking?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35480736


hmm seems like will make motorists use more of the road and act carelessly?

The before and after pictures in Croydon show that the width of the marked cycle lane has been noticeably increased. It would seem removal of all those cross hatchings has made more road space.
I dislike roads with centre cross hatching because, although motorists can cross them (dashed boundary line), they invariably don't and can give close passes as a result.

The uncertainty factor encourages motorists to slow as they don't want to damage their cars and also lane markings imply that they have a "right" to be in that lane giving them "confidence" to drive faster. It doesn't really matter how "bright" the driver is, as nearly all drivers will react in a similar way.

[gaz]

You can remove a lot more than white lines in order to calm the road; reducing signs that give information overload, opening up pedestrian desire lines, redefining space : http://www.theihe.org/wp-content/upload ... n_2014.pdf

CONTEXT
A prime task in designing or adapting a street is to encourage drivers to drive appropriately. In the past there has been a significant reliance on signs and other street equipment to bring this about.

However there is increasing evidence that drivers alter their driving style and behaviour in response to the form of the street, regardless of the presence of signs. They tend to drive at what they consider to be a safe speed. If the street is designed so that drivers feel comfortable travelling at an appropriate speed, many signs and items of traffic related street furniture become unnecessary.

The advantage of removing street clutter is that the physical character, or context of a street: its buildings, spaces and local landmarks can be seen and appreciated more easily.

[[XAP]Bob]

The UK flagship is probably Exhibition Road in London ( the one the Science Museum is on)

Which is a very scary thought, with motorists running (driving?) amok there when I've ridden along it. Its main saving graces for cycling are a 20mph limit and that there's relatively few kerbs so you can usually get away from the really nasty motorists and hide behind the street furniture and parked cars! https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... tion-road/

Hopefully the line removal trials will turn out rather better than that.

Far nicer now than it was when I was a student there. And now I'm looking at it with my kids in mind as well...

[TonyR]

The UK flagship is probably Exhibition Road in London ( the one the Science Museum is on)

Which is a very scary thought, with motorists running (driving?) amok there when I've ridden along it. Its main saving graces for cycling are a 20mph limit and that there's relatively few kerbs so you can usually get away from the really nasty motorists and hide behind the street furniture and parked cars! https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... tion-road/

Hopefully the line removal trials will turn out rather better than that.

Far nicer now than it was when I was a student there. And now I'm looking at it with my kids in mind as well...

I agree. South of Cromwell Road there are loads of pavement cafes spilling out onto the road and north you can pretty much walk or cycle wherever you want on the road and the motorists cooperate save the odd idiot. Its much better than when you had to wait and wait for a gap to cross.

Its interesting that the blog link grudgingly admits that its much better than it was but rails against it because its not segregation. For some people segregation is the only answer and anything that suggests that the streets can be made vulnerable user friendly without it is an anathema.