Government avoiding rail ticket reform

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by Mick F »

Dunno.
All I can say is what I've been told. He's a good knowledgeable chap and I have no reason to think he's wrong.

Although I've been to Holland a few times, I've never personally been on a train there.
Mick F. Cornwall
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by PH »

mjr wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:I'm familiar with that kind of anomaly from some other countries, where it's due to local authorities subsidising fares within their own region but not beyond it

Germany? It used to be cheaper to buy one-day all-routes tickets for a series of states than to just buy a single ticket for some journeys. :roll:

Anyone who thinks our ticketing system is confusing should try some other countries. Most aren't always as simple as the examples used in stories criticising ours.


So what? Are you arguing that because other countries have ticketing anomalies it's OK that we do? Do you not think that a single national operator would be better placed to come up with a more transparent ticketing system than one involving lots of operators? I don't believe the cheap fares are harder to find by accident, their availability skews the figures, without making too much impact on sales. The Office of Rail Regulation has consistently found that passengers pay too much for tickets, in the last survey I can find it was 4 in 10 who could have traveled cheaper, that's no accident, it's a deception. I haven't traveled by train in Germany, I have in Netherlands, France and Spain, in every case I've had the fares and options explained to me. One of our TOCs was recently in trouble for emailing someone and telling them they should have done the research before coming to the ticket office as it wasn't their responsibility to offer the best price. A few headlines and they quickly backtracked, but I have no doubt their initial response reflects their ethos.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by mjr »

I don't think there should be ticket price anomalies but I think they're very hard to avoid and no country I've visited seems to have avoided them, despite occasional claims to the contrary during discussions like this. Sometimes the headline fare structure is simpler, as in the Netherlands, but the detail isn't that simple.

I think a single national operator would be simpler than our current overlapping warring privateers. Even multiple national operators might new simpler.

Unless something changed, ticket offices must tell you the cheapest or fastest tickets if you ask, but some of the staff seem to struggle as much as we do. I know we're lucky in West Norfolk with knowledgeable people who just remember much of the anomalies and seem able to interrogate the machines for the rest, including one worker who posts here sometimes, but I'm often surprised by how they manage it. Probably not all train stations are as lucky to have inherited wise staff or trained them up. The management of rail franchisees isn't good enough to fix that and probably never will be until the passengers own all of the railway, either directly or via the state, and a public service ethos is installed (which seemed widely absent in the last days of BR too).
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by iviehoff »

simonineaston wrote:Just think... maybe, just maybe a Labour govt. will get in next time and maybe, just maybe, they'll renationalise the railways and maybe, just maybe they'll go back to offering easy-to-understand pricing structures... mind you, I'll be dead by then!

Just to remind you, though I've already said it, the last labour government already renationalised it, the actual railways.

Easy to understand pricing structures = none of those super cheap special offers. Once again, be careful of what you wish for, you might actually get it.
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by iviehoff »

mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:A friend of ours is Dutch.
He says that in Holland, the train tickets are charged per Km.

Seems fine by me. The further you go, the more you pay.

So the high-speed trains (which cost more) go by longer routes then, yet still arrive sooner? And the train goes a shorter way during the off-peak times for people who hold an off-peak discount pass? And how does the per-ticket surcharge for not using a smartcard work into the distance? ;)

Or less sarcastically: I don't think it's quite as simple as per km pricing, even in an area less than a fifth the size of the UK... and it looks like it's even less simple now the multiple operators there (including Veolia and Arriva as well as NS) appear to be offering tickets that compete on price, in addition to the common tariff.

In the Netherlands, there is a surcharge for using certain premium services. Also the ticket prices are node to node, and do not depend upon which routing the train the train to choose takes, when there are alternative routings.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by mjr »

iviehoff wrote:In the Netherlands, there is a surcharge for using certain premium services. Also the ticket prices are node to node, and do not depend upon which routing the train the train to choose takes, when there are alternative routings.

So it's not per km after all? :eek:
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
PRL
Posts: 607
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 9:14pm
Location: Richmond upon Thames

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by PRL »

Bmblbzzz wrote:As for ticketing, the biggest problem IMO is the huge disparity between advance and walk-up fares on many long-distance routes and some shorter commuter routes. These effectively mean you have to plan rail travel well in advance, which puts it at a great disadvantage compared to coach or air, let alone driving.


If I am taking my bike on an intercity I have to book well in advance anyway to get a place. Cyclists actually benefit from these disparities (and get a seat ).
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Having to book in advance is a pain! Though in practice, there is usually nothing at all to stop you putting a bike on most trains without a reservation (as well as no way of ensuring a reservation gets your bike a place).
irc
Posts: 5192
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by irc »

Bmblbzzz wrote:As for ticketing, the biggest problem IMO is the huge disparity between advance and walk-up fares on many long-distance routes and some shorter commuter routes. These effectively mean you have to plan rail travel well in advance, which puts it at a great disadvantage compared to coach or air, let alone driving.


Really. Just priced a morning BA Glasgow London flight tomorrow - £167. Easyjet £81 By rail £61. Advantage to rail there. And rail doesn't even need to give you a seat.

Air and rail both charge a premium for last minute travel.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by Bmblbzzz »

True, they do – or give you a discount for booking early, as they'd probably put it – and so do some coach services. The variations are going to differ from route to route and operator to operator, I think for air there is less variation by late-ness with 'full service' carriers than the likes of EasyJet. But nationalrail.co.uk is showing me from £46 advance to £180.50 anytime for London to Glasgow tomorrow morning (at 05:30 and 07:43 respectively) – whereas driving would cost pretty much the same whatever time you leave and whether you plan a year in advance or spur of the moment. There are Groupsave tickets on (some at least) trains but never seem them promoted.
User avatar
RickH
Posts: 5832
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by RickH »

If you travel regularly and fit in one of the categories (16-25, two together, family, over 60 or disabled) you can save 1/3 on most fares with a railcard. Sometimes it can be cheaper to buy the railcard for a single qualifying journey, even if you never use it again before it expires.

Rick.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
pwa
Posts: 17369
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by pwa »

I'm going up to Manchester with my daughter for a university open day, and the eye watering cost of the train has, as usual, turned the trip into a lovely long drive in the car. Even with all the hidden extra costs of the car I will save £100+.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by mjr »

pwa wrote:I'm going up to Manchester with my daughter for a university open day, and the eye watering cost of the train has, as usual, turned the trip into a lovely long drive in the car. Even with all the hidden extra costs of the car I will save £100+.

Only if your time has no price or you can't do anything useful with the time on the train (which some people can't, I know).
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by PH »

pwa wrote:I'm going up to Manchester with my daughter for a university open day, and the eye watering cost of the train has, as usual, turned the trip into a lovely long drive in the car. Even with all the hidden extra costs of the car I will save £100+.


The sad thing is, I expect those who understand and can manipulate the system could have done it at a price at least as competitive as the car. Give me the days and times and I'll see if I can give an example.
jgurney
Posts: 1212
Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: Government avoiding rail ticket reform

Post by jgurney »

Mick F wrote:... the train tickets are charged per Km.

Seems fine by me. The further you go, the more you pay.


That was tried here in Victorian times (the 'penny a mile' for third class) but did not work out well.

One problem is that it makes long journeys much more expensive than they usually otherwise would be, as generally rail fares do not go up in direct proportion to distance.
E.g. I just checked the fares for going (buying and travelling as soon as possible today) to either a station 5 miles down my local suburban line, or from London to Glasgow

Trip: Distance*: Fare: Cost/mile
Local trip, 5 miles £3.70 74p
London- Glasgow 400 miles £132.00 33p

so the longer journey costs 35 times as much to travel 80 times the distance. If the fares were proportionate to distance and the local one was unchanged than the London - Glasgow fare would be £296.

Other problems are that it ignores the facts that different lines have different operating costs and different levels of revenue, so some routes actually cost much more to run per passenger per mile than others, and that if often makes sense to manage loadings by using different fares to encourage some passengers to travel at quieter times or on less congested routes.

* approx to within 5%
Post Reply