HGV speed limit trial

[hexhome]

I have been informed that the speed limit for HGVs on single carriageways is to be raised to 50mph for a trial period on the A9 between Perth and Inverness.
My personal view is that this is a reasonable situation for a fast trunk road. I would not be in favour of the limit being raised for all single carriageways.

[MikeF]

But isn't it planned for all single carriageways? https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/national-speed-limits-for-heavy-goods-vehicles.
I thought HGV's were governed to 56mph (90kph),- that's what almost travel at, but it appears 60mph will be the new limit for dual carriageways.

[rmurphy195]

This wording from the article says it all, really "– it is broken by about three quarters of HGV drivers at any particular time when they are not constrained by other traffic or the road layout. It is implausible that it could readily be made to work without a disproportionate effort."

It really does annoy me when I'm driving on a perfectly clear road with good visibility, travelling behind one of these in particular, that I can't overtake it safely and quickly without perhaps being nobbled by a speed camera set for the 60 limit, whereas the trucks break their 40 limit willy-nilly with no risk of being caught - and make it difficult to pass.

And I do stick to the 60 (or otherwise posted) limit rigidly.

And trucks do ignore this limit - I've driven for lots of years and have always assumed the truck limit was the same as the caravan limit - having being tailgated many times by big trucks when towing a caravan! And indeed when not towing, when obeying a posted limit (If anyone is familiar with the tunnels through central Brum, which now have a 30mph limit - imagine driving a 2-seater through there with an artic tailgating you, having driven at you at high speed to close the gap.) Rant over.

... well almost, 'cos cycling up through Selly Oak on the Bristol Road is no fun when one of these is behind you as you pedal uphill past the line of parked cars. And this is "University-Land"

[TonyR]

Personally I'd be in favour of it. Contrary to the experience of others posted here I find that most trucks I encounter have been speed limited to 40mph and cannot go faster on single carriageway roads. That results in a build up of frustrated car drivers wanting to go faster resulting in risky overtaking manoeuvres. At 50mph some of that frustration will hopefully go as its the sort of speed many cars do these days on single carriageway roads.

[bikepacker]

Just to clarify. Are you saying that in order to curb the frustrations of car drivers, speed limits should be increased thus putting vulnerable road users in greater danger?

[Psamathe]

For me it's a difficult one because I think so much must depend on the details of any particular road. Some roads raise it no problem whilst others the current limits are probably too high.

Whilst not in response to a post of mine:

Just to clarify. Are you saying that in order to curb the frustrations of car drivers, speed limits should be increased thus putting vulnerable road users in greater danger?

I remember years ago they were having a problem with people speeding on Stratford High Street (then a 30 mph limit). So they did a study and decided they should increase the speed limit to 40 mph to slow drivers down! And it worked. The average vehicle speed was slower once the speed limit had been increased to 40. But that was before the days of speed cameras so these days there are far more enforcement options.

Traffic does have to move and setting excessively low speed limits everywhere will probably achieve nothing.

My scepticism comes in that I think those setting the speed limits will often be more concerned about "vehicle throughput" and will make their decisions primarily based on the car/lorry considerations rather than a sensible balance including vulnerable road user considerations.

Additionally, these days there is so little enforcement that people know where they can break the speed limits with virtually no risk of being caught. So often the speed limit is something of an irrelevance anyway.

Ian

[TonyR]

Just to clarify. Are you saying that in order to curb the frustrations of car drivers, speed limits should be increased thus putting vulnerable road users in greater danger?

No, I'm saying the frustration of car drivers stuck behind an HGV doing 40mph in a national speed limit area is a greater danger to vulnerable road users than a higher speed limit for HGVs. For example given a gap, a driver will overtake out of frustration even if a cyclist is coming the other way and having overtaken will drive faster to psychologically make up lost time. Neither of those are good for us and I find most of the HGV drivers that do stick to the 40mph speed limit to be generally professional and considerate towards vulnerable road users (the ones that don't are another matter but they go fast enough to avoid the frustration factor)

[MikeF]

There isn't an obligation for any vehicle to travel at the speed limit. In fact all vehicles should be travelling at less than the limit. Unfortunately the limit is all too often seen as a target that dictates what the vehicles' speed should be.

There are roads around here where the national speed applies, but even 30mph would be too fast for safety. Similarly there are roads where a speed of 50mph maybe OK for cars, but not for HGVs or even LGVs.

Even if drivers break the speed limit I expect most know they are doing so. I feel far happier being overtaken by vehicles in a 20 limit than in a 30 limit than in a 40 limit than in a 50 limit than in a 60 limit than in a 70 limit. In fact the higher the speed of vehicles and the larger the vehicle the less comfortable I feel.

[Bonefishblues]

Just to clarify. Are you saying that in order to curb the frustrations of car drivers, speed limits should be increased thus putting vulnerable road users in greater danger?

No, I'm saying the frustration of car drivers stuck behind an HGV doing 40mph in a national speed limit area is a greater danger to vulnerable road users than a higher speed limit for HGVs. For example given a gap, a driver will overtake out of frustration even if a cyclist is coming the other way and having overtaken will drive faster to psychologically make up lost time. Neither of those are good for us and I find most of the HGV drivers that do stick to the 40mph speed limit to be generally professional and considerate towards vulnerable road users (the ones that don't are another matter but they go fast enough to avoid the frustration factor)

Substitute might, perhaps?

Also a driver might overtake because he or she wishes to travel (up to 50%) more quickly that 40mph in a NSL, rather than "out of frustration", perhaps?

I agree with the point you are making BTW, but I think that it could be couched slightly better.

[TonyR]

Personally I think its the frustration that builds up from the feeling they are losing time rather than the desire to drive at 60mph that leads them to do risky overtaking manoeuvres. And if you have a few drivers stuck behind the truck then the front one may overtake but a driver will overtake as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

[bikepacker]

Higher speeds lead to more danger for vulnerable road users. I glad I am not advocating this one.

[ambodach]

The A9 is to have average speed cameras over some sections. My understanding is that the HGV limit is to be raised on this road to allow all traffic to travel at about the same speed and avoid the overtaking problem which is the source of many accidents on this particular road.

[Bicycler]

The sceptic in me thinks that people will still feel the need to overtake lorries travelling at 50

[Bonefishblues]

Personally I think its the frustration that builds up from the feeling they are losing time rather than the desire to drive at 60mph that leads them to do risky overtaking manoeuvres. And if you have a few drivers stuck behind the truck then the front one may overtake but a driver will overtake as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

Personally, you may indeed feel that.

Personally I think that a greater source of frustration which might lead to greater risk via a misjudgement is the increasing propensity of drivers not to overtake. Eh? I hear you say

Of course, people can choose to drive at whatever speed they like, within reason and within the law, and there is no compulsion whatsoever to overtake and I have no issue whatsoever with that, except that many drivers seem to follow very close behind the vehicle in front, without the slightest intention to overtake. What would have been an overtaking opportunity for a car that does wish to travel faster then ceases to be such, because a 1-car overtake has become a 2-car (or indeed more) overtake, where the overtake is much more difficult, and the opportunities significantly fewer.

Leaving a longer gap to the car in front is much more relaxing for the following driver, too, and indeed much safer, because they can see properly, rather than their vision being shielded by the vehicle in front. I don't really understand it, but I'd cite it as another example (of many) of driving where there's a lack of awareness of one's surroundings whilst in control (ostensibly) of a vehicle.

In such situations, then there is little else to do but simply drive at the speed of the lead vehicle - but I can understand why some might get frustrated, and unsafe overtakes might be attempted.

[irc]

The sceptic in me thinks that people will still feel the need to overtake lorries travelling at 50

Why not? 6omph is perfectly safe on the A9 between Dunblane and Inverness. That said at 60mph I'll only catch up half as many HGVs when they are doing 50mph rather than 40mph.