Bike Kickstand

[531colin]

As I have posted before....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95022&hilit=child

Stand over the bike, facing backwards, holding the bike up by the top tube between your legs. Lift the child into the seat. You can do that on grass, rough ground, wherever.
A stand needs a smooth. level, hard surface, and even then it won't be as stable as holding the bike yourself.

[pete75]

So, you know the stand is likely to damage the frame, but you recommend fitting one and shafting the retailer when it all goes belly up?

Eh? Would you expect the type of stand specifically recommended by the frame manufacturer to damage the frame - I wouldn't. If it does then any claim against the retailer is hardly shafting them is it?

[531colin]

Eh? Would you expect the type of stand specifically recommended by the frame manufacturer to damage the frame - ................

a quote, from Surly.....

You can crush the chainstays of the Long Haul Trucker (and our other frames too) if you tighten the kickstand’s clamp bolt too much, or, if you leave it too loose. This is because the chainstay tube walls are not super thick. You can crush them or flex them to death. The LHT chainstays were chosen to optimize the strength-to-weight ratio for the task at hand --hauling gear various distances-- while minimizing unwanted torsional flex in the rear triangle. They are not designed specifically for the clamping forces imposed on them by chainstay-mounted kickstands. Thicker stays could be used, of course, but there would be a performance penalty, and

http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/kickstands_on_long_haul_truckers

[pete75]

Eh? Would you expect the type of stand specifically recommended by the frame manufacturer to damage the frame - ................

a quote, from Surly.....

You can crush the chainstays of the Long Haul Trucker (and our other frames too) if you tighten the kickstand’s clamp bolt too much, or, if you leave it too loose. This is because the chainstay tube walls are not super thick. You can crush them or flex them to death. The LHT chainstays were chosen to optimize the strength-to-weight ratio for the task at hand --hauling gear various distances-- while minimizing unwanted torsional flex in the rear triangle. They are not designed specifically for the clamping forces imposed on them by chainstay-mounted kickstands. Thicker stays could be used, of course, but there would be a performance penalty, and

http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/kickstands_on_long_haul_truckers

Read on because after that they say " We recommend the use of two leg kickstands such as the Pletscher. Such a design helps reduce the potential for chainstay flex compared to that which a loaded bike leaning on a kickstand single leg can impose. And because of the extra leg and the placement, they tend to be the most stable in our experience."

[Tangled Metal]

As I have posted before....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95022&hilit=child

Stand over the bike, facing backwards, holding the bike up by the top tube between your legs. Lift the child into the seat. You can do that on grass, rough ground, wherever.
A stand needs a smooth. level, hard surface, and even then it won't be as stable as holding the bike yourself.

Then you have to effectively dismount and re-mount before riding off. Yes it does solve the mounting of the child in the seat but TBH it does not make it any easier to get off and running IMHO since for me it is the mounting that is the issue. I have no problem holding the bike to mount the child in the seat but it is to give me a hand mounting the seat should I lose contact with the bike for whatever reason.

My old bike had a high top tube/cross bar that meant I was highly unstable when mounting the bike with the leg over the cross bar. A stand would have helped that and it had one of those mounting plates so I guess the frame was suitable for a decent double leg stand. My new bike is totally different in that the cross bar is lower down but the space behind the BB is small with a reinforcing cross piece. I would not easily fit a stand there.

TBH no longer an issue for me since this new bike does not work with the child seat for some reason, it has some kind of wobble when you set off so that you can not safely get to any sort of speed. Not sure what causes it but it rules out use of a child seat on my bike except in absolute emergencies (I can not see what that might be). The stand would still be useful to protect my bike when toeing a trailer or loaded with panniers, stops me having to lay it down flat on panniers or the trailer hitch (potentially stressing the flexible link).

[Brucey]

.... In the bit I quoted Surly say "We recommend the use of two leg kickstands such as the Pletscher." In view of that it'd be difficult for the supplier of a Long Haul Trucker to talk his way out of any problem the frame suffered due to the correct fitting of such a stand.

Surly suggest a twin leg stand because they consider the loads it imposes on the frame are lower than those that might arise via a similar single-leg stand. They specifically mention that you can crush the stays on their frames by overtightening the mounting bolt, and that you shouldn't do that. They also say that you can damage your frame by leaving the bolt too loose, too.

You would expect that there ought to be a window of bolt tightness that would allow such a stand to be fitted without any damage to their (and similar other) frames. IME (and that of many others) this is not the case!

So, you know the stand is likely to damage the frame, but you recommend fitting one and shafting the retailer when it all goes belly up?

I think that is a fair summary. I don't think there is yet an example of such a stand being fitted to a lightweight (bracketless) frame where the stand was used as intended (i.e. repeatedly, under load), worked fine, and when removed there was no evidence that it had ever been there. I think it is the nature of the beast. If anyone knows otherwise, do show us, and tell us the magic that made it happen!

I would suppose that any such damage arising would fall into the 'bolt too loose' or 'bolt too tight' categories that Surly mention. Their warranty is against manufacturing defects and excludes damage caused by incorrect installation of accessories, misuse etc.

If it were readily possible to install such a stand without damage then either Pletscher or Surly would be able to specify a lube spec/torque figure for the bolt that would mount the stand securely with no harm arising. That would be very easy and there would be no arguments. That they don't quote such a figure is, I think, because it simply isn't possible to do so; they would just be making a rod for their own backs.

cheers

[Brucey]

BTW this is how their warranty used to read

http://web.archive.org/web/20101130074204/http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Frameset%20Warranty.pdf

and the (self-contradictory) ' surly spew' concerning kickstands has been on their website since about 2010, it seems.

cheers

[pete75]

BTW this is how their warranty used to read

http://web.archive.org/web/20101130074204/http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Frameset%20Warranty.pdf

and the (self-contradictory) ' surly spew' concerning kickstands has been on their website since about 2010, it seems.

cheers

That's about it really - self contradictory and spew is putting it mildly. If it was ever tested in the courts I doubt it'd carry much weight and if any of it did it would be the part starting " We recommend...."

[531colin]

So its fair to use Surly's ambiguous website to shaft a bike retailer, who has no control over that website.

[pete75]

So its fair to use Surly's ambiguous website to shaft a bike retailer, who has no control over that website.

What do you mean "shaft a bike retailer" ? Either a customer has a legitimate claim for redress or he has not. If the latter then the retailer has every right to refuse the claim.

[531colin]

So its fair to use Surly's ambiguous website to shaft a bike retailer, who has no control over that website.

What do you mean "shaft a bike retailer" ? Either a customer has a legitimate claim for redress or he has not. If the latter then the retailer has every right to refuse the claim.

Sorry, Pete, the sun is shining, and I have paint drying that I can go and watch.

[pete75]

So its fair to use Surly's ambiguous website to shaft a bike retailer, who has no control over that website.

What do you mean "shaft a bike retailer" ? Either a customer has a legitimate claim for redress or he has not. If the latter then the retailer has every right to refuse the claim.

Sorry, Pete, the sun is shining, and I have paint drying that I can go and watch.

Well it's a subject brought up by you....

[bikes4two]

I agree with all of the concerns raised here about kickstands crushing frame tubes - it's definitely a risk BUT if they were that much of a problem would not the word have spread years ago and sales have dropped and manufacturers stopped producing them? (... stands back and waits for the broadside!).

Anyway, I've just got back from a 4-day bike-packing trip around Anglia on my trusty Dawes Galaxy and the Pletscher Multizoom (fitted to the bike about 4 years ago) was used repeatedly every day offering great convenience when 'parking' the bike - I'm happy to take the risk

[Brucey]

bike manufacturers that supply stands or clearly endorse their fitment do so by using a welded mounting plate. Even then there are weight limits.

The other manufacturers (including surly) essentially say

'do what you like, but be careful, because if you damage you frame by fitting or using an accessory badly, your frame warranty is void'

.

Come to think of it I can't think of a bicycle accessory that you couldn't use badly in such a way as to damage your bike....

cheers

[Vorpal]

I can't say that I've had a kick stand since I was child, until fairly recently. My mountain bike (acquired used) had one when I got it. It actually seemed like a decent design; attached to the rear chain stay. But it only worked on a level surface and an unladen bike. The least little bit of slope and and a little extra weight on the rack, and the bike fell over. I tried adjusting it, but I think that it was just too far back to support the bike with any weight on it. I've taken it off.

Otherwise, I've always just leaned the bike against something. I wouldn't trust a kickstand to keep a bike up with a child in the seat. I can see it might be useful for loading purposes, but IMO, a better investment is a couple of velcro straps to hold the brakes on while you load the child in the seat.