New wheels. Help me choose!

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Samuel D
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New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Samuel D »

I’ve occasionally thought of treating my Dawes Clubman to some nice, lightweight, probably hand-built wheels. Recently I had a crash that gouged some spokes and slightly buckled the rear wheel, so now might be a good time.

  • I’m light, roughly 65 kg (145 lb / 10½ st.)
  • but don’t want anything too flimsy
  • will sometimes use them for light touring, but usually carry only an emergency toolkit
  • like to ride fast sometimes, including laps of the Longchamp racecourse
  • tyres are 25 mm
  • cassette is Shimano 8-speed
  • rear OLN is 130 mm.
I’m more interested in the wheels being well built than in having nominally high-performance components. I’d like the rims to be light, but I can’t spend a fortune on them.

How about these from Spa Cycles? For example, Exal XR2 rims on Tiagra hubs, 32-hole front, 36-hole rear, presumably well built with good spokes (Sapim?) and brass nipples, for £176 (though shipping to France adds a hefty £25).

Some questions:

  1. What does paying more for 105 or Ultegra over Tiagra get you?
  2. Should I consider 28-spoke front and 32-spoke rear even though that would mean splurging on a Dura-Ace or NOS Ultegra 6600 front hub?
  3. Do the wear-marker grooves on Exal XR2 rims affect braking?
  4. Are Mavic Open Pro rims a better bet? They’re much dearer.
  5. Who in France builds wheels to a high standard?
Any other comments welcome. Thanks!
Brucey
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Brucey »

1.What does paying more for 105 or Ultegra over Tiagra get you?
2.Should I consider 28-spoke front and 32-spoke rear even though that would mean splurging on a Dura-Ace or NOS Ultegra 6600 front hub?
3.Do the wear-marker grooves on Exal XR2 rims affect braking?
4.Are Mavic Open Pro rims a better bet? They’re much dearer.
5.Who in France builds wheels to a high standard?


1) better seals in some but not all cases
2) if you are worried about four spokes more per wheel, yes.
3) yes but it varies with brake block and brake; if the arms twist the braking performance can be appreciably worse.
4) they are also lighter, I think, by more than the weight of four spokes...and might not last as long...
5) ask locally, or learn to do it yourself?

cheers
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Samuel D
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Samuel D »

Brucey wrote:2) if you are worried about four spokes more per wheel, yes.

Should I be? I’m inclined to think not, but I’m also inclined to think I can’t possibly need as many spokes as a Clydesdale. On the other hand, 32-spoke front and rear, if strong enough at the rear, would presumably be ‘too strong’ at the front.

Brucey wrote:5) ask locally, or learn to do it yourself?

I will learn at some point, but only when I can afford the tools to do it right. For now I’m happy to pay an expert. I’ve asked locally and got contradictory answers. One of the recommended builders seems to use plain-gauge or double-butted spokes but not both on one rear wheel – surely that’s a sign of limited theoretical knowledge?

Though if the wheels work, they work.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Too strong doesn't really exist

Too heavy might - but the mass difference is fairly small in reality.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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interestedcp
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by interestedcp »

Shimano Tiagra hubs are very good. While the Shimano line-ups change often, here are what have observed as differences between Tiagra and 105/Ultegra hubs:

The Tiagra hubs a uses carbon steel grade 100/200 ball bearings. This gives them a tiny feel of "roughness" when turning the hub with the hands, but is impossible to detect when the bearings are loaded. If you upgrade the ball bearings to grade 20 (105/Ultegra) stainless steel balls, it becomes just as smooth as Ultgra when turning them by hand.

The Tiagra cones and races aren't "Borazon polished" and not as hard or smooth as 105/Ultegra cones and races. 105/Ultgra hubs probably have a edge over Tiagra hubs when it comes to resist wear or damage caused by water and dirt ingress and too much bearing preload.

However, if you pack the bearings with all the grease they can fit, doesn't over-tighten the cones and inspect them once a year or so, Tiagra hubs offers very good performance for a bargain price, and will probably be very long lasting too. While I really like nice hubs, I will probably never buy another Ultegra hub again; the Tiagra/105 hubs are just too good and too much value for money.

Regarding rims: Mavic rims are quite good quality, but IMHO overpriced. The Open Pro rim also have wafer thin sidewalls, so one should use brake pads that are gentle to the rims or the rims wears out much too fast.

The new 2016 edition of Tiagra called "FH-RS400" looks very nice:
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shim ... aid:812205

You can buy a complete wheel set with these Tiagra hubs and quality DT Swiss DB spokes for a low price at Rose bikes:
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/xtre ... aid:339578

There is also a French version of Rose bikes:
http://www.rosebikes.fr/
--
Regards
Brucey
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Brucey »

interestedcp wrote: Shimano Tiagra hubs are very good. While the Shimano line-ups change often, here are what have observed as differences between Tiagra and 105/Ultegra hubs:

The Tiagra hubs a uses carbon steel grade 100/200 ball bearings. This gives them a tiny feel of "roughness" when turning the hub with the hands, but is impossible to detect when the bearings are loaded. If you upgrade the ball bearings to grade 20 (105/Ultegra) stainless steel balls, it becomes just as smooth as Ultgra when turning them by hand.

The Tiagra cones and races aren't "Borazon polished" and not as hard or smooth as 105/Ultegra cones and races. 105/Ultgra hubs probably have a edge over Tiagra hubs when it comes to resist wear or damage caused by water and dirt ingress and too much bearing preload....



If you look at the EV techdocs for Tiagra FH-4600 and (say) Ultegra FH-6700 you will find that the ball bearings used in these hubs are the exact same part number. There is no difference indicated in the quality of the ball bearings.

The cups and cones have various small differences in the polishing and surface finish but there is little evidence that the bearings are softer or that tiagra hubs will actually wear any faster if the hubs are correctly adjusted/lubricated and water is kept out. Tiagra has less good RH rear hub seals.

Ultegra hubs start out smooth but if you service Tiagra hubs properly they will be almost as smooth after a few thousand miles.

You will also note that Tiagra FH-4600 uses the same freehub body as 105 FH-5700.

Ultegra FH-6800 uses a lighter but slightly less strong bearing construction, using smaller balls. I think it is adequately strong for unladen use, but obviously there is less tolerance for bad adjustment etc.

hth

cheers
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interestedcp
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by interestedcp »

Brucey wrote:If you look at the EV techdocs for Tiagra FH-4600 and (say) Ultegra FH-6700 you will find that the ball bearings used in these hubs are the exact same part number. There is no difference indicated in the quality of the ball bearings.


The part numbers only identify spare parts, not the parts the components was build with. While these two things usually are identical, sometimes they are not. I remember eg. some Shimano skewer recalls where the same hub would be affected or not depended on the colour of the skewer (not the cam colour). Same hub, only one part number, yet there was a slight difference between the skewers as the hub where delivered from the factory.

This link to Shimano's site for the FH-4500 Tiagra hub, specifically says it doesn't have stainless steel bearings:
http://www.shimano.com/publish/content/ ... _road.html

The link is slightly unstable, probably because the FH-4500 series is obsolete and is on the old Shimano site, but this random site that copied the Shimano site says the same:
http://www.bicyclehero.com/sg/shimano-t ... e-32h.html

This Shimano link says the Ultegra FH-6700 hub has stainless steel ball bearings:
http://www.shimano.com/publish/content/ ... ype-..html

Yet, both hubs are specified with the exact same parts number: "Y-000 91310". I think this support the notion that there actually was a difference between Ultegra hubs and Tiagra hubs regarding ball bearings as the hubs are delivered from the factory, despite they both have the same part number for spare ball bearings.

Anyway, when I bought my first Tiagra hub I didn't believe when people said they could feel a slight "rumble/roughness" in the Tiagra hub and this would disappear when using grade 25 balls. But I could actually feel it when turning it in my hand even after cone adjustment. And since I had to repack it it anyway (too little grease from the factory), I popped in some Grade 25 SS ball bearings. The difference was quite clear; the roughness really disappeared, and when comparing to a Ultegra hub I couldn't feel any difference in smoothness.

So I actually do think that Tiagra hubs used to come with lower grade non-stainless steel ball bearings, despite Shimano only selling one grade of steel balls.
There could have been significant savings for Shimano when doing mass production of hubs to use low grade ball bearings for when assembling low end hubs, but not enough profit in maintaining two different spare part lines.

Not that I really think it matters much; For mere mortals there probably isn't any performance difference between Grade 200 carbon steel balls and Grade 25 stainless steel ball bearings.
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Spinners
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Spinners »

At your weight and intended use I'd go for 32-spokes on Open Pro rims.
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Brucey
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Brucey »

re the stainless ball bearings; that better grade balls (tighter dimensional tolerance) make for a smoother hub is beyond doubt. But I don't know what lesser shimano hubs use Gr 200 and I've opened up enough ultegra/XT hubs to find corroded balls that I am not convinced that they are fitted with stainless ones, either.

Perhaps as you say they specify a different spare part than was used in original manufacture but this does rather beg the question 'why?' bearing in mind that this would be a downgrade if your idea is correct, and IIRC shimano still supply better quality balls for Dura-Ace etc. For example 000-9137 is a shimano part number for 1/4" (allegedly) stainless balls; why not spec that as a spare part for ultegra hubs if that is what was used in the first place?

I would like to find a definitive statement on this subject. As it is I am not dismissing the notion that this has somehow arisen through a 'lost in translation' moment. There is something screwy going on!

cheers
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CREPELLO
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by CREPELLO »

Brucey wrote:
I would like to find a definitive statement on this subject. As it is I am not dismissing the notion that this has somehow arisen through a 'lost in translation' moment. There is something screwy going on!

cheers
It's not only bearings, but your choice of hubs too. Would you like a 105 5800 hub? Or perhaps you'd like to upgrade to a 105 err 5800? viewtopic.php?f=5&t=98138

Edit: I see from the link from Rose above that the new Tiagra hubs are not silver as described and as were previous Tiagra generations, but light metallic grey, if that matters to you. (it matters to me :oops: )
Samuel D
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by Samuel D »

Thanks for the interesting discussion about hubs and bearings.

Rose Bikes have amazing wheel prices from the point of view of components included. But as I said, I am more interested in a top-notch build. The Rose wheels likely don’t have the spokes punched into the flanges (though whether this matters is another thing), aren’t stress-relieved (according to user reviews), and I am not sure they use both double-butted and plain-gauge spokes in rear wheels (surely essential?). There’s also no option for 32- and 36-spoke mixed sets, or even an option for 32 spokes at all.

I think I’ll go through the Shimano tech docs and see if there any significant differences in centre-to-flange distances for the various road hubs.

I should even consider a dynamo front hub while I’m at this, though the ones I can afford don’t seem to be very user-serviceable. Probably not, then.
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chris_suffolk
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by chris_suffolk »

Samuel D wrote: But as I said, I am more interested in a top-notch build.


Try Madgetts in Diss for a first class wheel build. He has customers from all over the UK using him and never seen anything but compliments on his work. Still builds wooden rimmed wheels too if you want something different (lol) !!!! Sure he would advise, and would definately build if you gave him a specto work from.
pwa
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by pwa »

I bought my daughter a pair of Spa wheels with Tiagra hubs and they seem very well made.
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interestedcp
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by interestedcp »

Brucey wrote:
Perhaps as you say they specify a different spare part than was used in original manufacture but this does rather beg the question 'why?' bearing in mind that this would be a downgrade if your idea is correct, and IIRC shimano still supply better quality balls for Dura-Ace etc. For example 000-9137 is a shimano part number for 1/4" (allegedly) stainless balls; why not spec that as a spare part for ultegra hubs if that is what was used in the first place?


The reason why is cut cutting. Tiny savings really add up when doing mass production.

Here is what I think that is going on;
I think Shimano is following their usual cost cutting by using lower grade balls for cheaper hubs for when they are manufactured, but that spare parts ball bearings are the same high grade as the Ultegra/105 series. So Tiagra or even cheaper hubs are getting an "upgrade" when getting new ball bearings. I am not alone in thinking that low end Shimano hubs comes with lower grade ball bearings from the factory. Shimano saves money and no one is cheated.

Whether "Y-000 91310" ball bearings are stainless or not I really don't know: Maybe Shimano have even changed the ball bearings with this number from chrome balls to stainless steel balls the last couple of years. Or maybe you are right about the Shimano info on the 105 using stainless ball bearings simply is an error.
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interestedcp
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Re: New wheels. Help me choose!

Post by interestedcp »

Samuel D wrote:Thanks for the interesting discussion about hubs and bearings.

Rose Bikes have amazing wheel prices from the point of view of components included. But as I said, I am more interested in a top-notch build. The Rose wheels likely don’t have the spokes punched into the flanges (though whether this matters is another thing), aren’t stress-relieved (according to user reviews), and I am not sure they use both double-butted and plain-gauge spokes in rear wheels (surely essential?). There’s also no option for 32- and 36-spoke mixed sets, or even an option for 32 spokes at all.


While Rose bikes regularly changes their build practices, they do stress relieve their wheels. (Even wheel building robots have finally caught on with this.) This is why they give a ten year warranty on their spokes. They produce and sell a rather massive amount of traditionally designed 36H 3X wheels, so if their wheels mostly weren't good enough they would have problems. Rose bikes don't really compete on prices, but on service, so if you get a bad wheel build they will exchange it. Anyway, I thought they where worth mentioning since price and postage to France seemed to be an issue.

Regarding the choice of components, then Rose bikes will build any wheel using components they stock, so you can specify what you want like a 32H front hub dynamo and a 36H rear hub. The price for such individual build are higher than the batch produced offers on their homepage.

However; the engineering design optimum for 700C wheels using standard components are 36H 3X lacing. The 32H hubs are the optimum for smaller 26" wheels and meant for such. The weight savings going from 32 to 36 spokes on 700C wheels are minimal, while the reduction in strength and durability is quite measurable. Research papers and Finite Element Analysis have repeatedly showed this.

Mixing plain and double butted spokes isn't essential either. I don't think it is even desirable.

Samuel D wrote:I should even consider a dynamo front hub while I’m at this, though the ones I can afford don’t seem to be very user-serviceable. Probably not, then.


Shimano 3 Watt "Sport" hub dynamos (3N72 and above) are serviceable in basically 3 different ways;
1. Taking it apart; require some studying first and being careful when disassembling since there is an internal wire that easily break. Have done this many times now.
2. Slightly loosen the cones and inject grease into the bearings. No personal experience with the procedure, but based on my experience with Shimano dynamo hubs, this the best and easiest approach. The sealing and races are of an extremely high quality, so cleaning the bearings are much less important than replenishing the grease.
3. Exchanging the entire internal assembly at once, by either buying spare parts or cannibalizing another hub. This is very easy and fast to do.
--
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