Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
I got a Dura Ace 7700 rear hub (36h) and DT Swiss Champion spokes. Shimano have made this DA rear hub so the flange of the hub will not allow the DT Swiss Champion spokes to bend around the flange, the j-bend of the spoke is too small and it would take some bad stressing of the spoke to make the spoke go where it should.
Does Shimano expect people to telepathically know this?
I tried a spoke that has a slightly longer j-bend but that one also won't sit right, so they have to be longer than one that is already longer than that.
Why are they even making hubs certain spokes won't fit in?
What a waste of time that was!
So if Champions don't fit then I guess Competitions and Revolutions all don't either, since they are the same brand?
Would Sapim Strong fit? Even if they did fit this DA hub, doesn't that mean they would not fit on nearly every other hub going?
Who knows, let's consult our crystal balls.
EDIT: Its possible to have 2mm straight ones on...
http://i.imgur.com/EoR7rzt.jpg
Now all I have to do is try to make out what little logo is on the ends of all those spokes.
What I won't do is put anything other than 2mm straight ones on, simply because the front wheel has those and it will just look stupid with thick spokes front and thin on the rear.
Let me guess, you need Dura Ace specific spokes and they cost three quid a spoke?
"Short elbows might not fit thick hubs, requiring manual bending to reach the angle required for the wheel."
You can do that?
All your spokes would become too short coupled with the fact that you've bent it at the j-bend. I wouldn't even think that would work without spokes snapping at the elbow here and there because the spoke was weakened, there of all places.
I'd rather just sell this stupid hub to be honest. What a load of faffing about this is turning out to be.
Does Shimano expect people to telepathically know this?
I tried a spoke that has a slightly longer j-bend but that one also won't sit right, so they have to be longer than one that is already longer than that.
Why are they even making hubs certain spokes won't fit in?
What a waste of time that was!
So if Champions don't fit then I guess Competitions and Revolutions all don't either, since they are the same brand?
Would Sapim Strong fit? Even if they did fit this DA hub, doesn't that mean they would not fit on nearly every other hub going?
Who knows, let's consult our crystal balls.
EDIT: Its possible to have 2mm straight ones on...
http://i.imgur.com/EoR7rzt.jpg
Now all I have to do is try to make out what little logo is on the ends of all those spokes.
What I won't do is put anything other than 2mm straight ones on, simply because the front wheel has those and it will just look stupid with thick spokes front and thin on the rear.
Let me guess, you need Dura Ace specific spokes and they cost three quid a spoke?
"Short elbows might not fit thick hubs, requiring manual bending to reach the angle required for the wheel."
You can do that?
All your spokes would become too short coupled with the fact that you've bent it at the j-bend. I wouldn't even think that would work without spokes snapping at the elbow here and there because the spoke was weakened, there of all places.
I'd rather just sell this stupid hub to be honest. What a load of faffing about this is turning out to be.
Last edited by Manc33 on 23 Jun 2015, 9:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
DT spokes have been made with various length elbow bends and hub flanges vary in thickness and hole detail.
A spoke that appears to 'fit easily' to a novice wheelbuilder may be the wrong spoke and one that 'doesn't fit at all easily' may be a much better spoke for that particular wheel. The heads may need to be punched in, the bend may make itself a fair-sized seat in the flange, the spoke may need to be manually set in position. All this is normal; good even.
So before getting in a tizzy about spokes that don't fit, etc, might I suggest that you show us just how the fit of the parts that you have really looks like?
cheers
A spoke that appears to 'fit easily' to a novice wheelbuilder may be the wrong spoke and one that 'doesn't fit at all easily' may be a much better spoke for that particular wheel. The heads may need to be punched in, the bend may make itself a fair-sized seat in the flange, the spoke may need to be manually set in position. All this is normal; good even.
So before getting in a tizzy about spokes that don't fit, etc, might I suggest that you show us just how the fit of the parts that you have really looks like?
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
As Brucey says, its almost a case of the harder it is to get the spoke into the flange, the better it is.
The photo you linked shows the spoke shaft nice and tight against the flange, not "gappy", so the bend is supported as much as it can be by the flange. The spoke logo is raised and fairly square....I wouldn't be surprised if they are DT.
I also would'nt be surprised if Shimano drill Dura-Ace much closer to 2mm than they do the rest of their hubs. 14g spokes are about 2mm, yet the majority of hubs are drilled about 3mm, I believe this is so wheelbuilding machines can thread the spokes, and its a side-effect that 13g spokes (eg Sapim strong) will go in. Old Campag hubs were drilled so tight you sometimes have to screw 2mm spokes in.
The photo you linked shows the spoke shaft nice and tight against the flange, not "gappy", so the bend is supported as much as it can be by the flange. The spoke logo is raised and fairly square....I wouldn't be surprised if they are DT.
I also would'nt be surprised if Shimano drill Dura-Ace much closer to 2mm than they do the rest of their hubs. 14g spokes are about 2mm, yet the majority of hubs are drilled about 3mm, I believe this is so wheelbuilding machines can thread the spokes, and its a side-effect that 13g spokes (eg Sapim strong) will go in. Old Campag hubs were drilled so tight you sometimes have to screw 2mm spokes in.
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
Brucey wrote:So before getting in a tizzy about spokes that don't fit, etc, might I suggest that you show us just how the fit of the parts that you have really looks like?
Both the spokes for each flange pushed in, without forcing them at all.
The NDS one seems alright (although itself isn't as "loose" as any others I have built, albeit that isn't many) and the DS one is, well you can tell from the pic. My heart sank when I first pushed one in because it wouldn't go.
531colin wrote:I also would'nt be surprised if Shimano drill Dura-Ace much closer to 2mm than they do the rest of their hubs.
Both the spokes above had to be screwed in the hole to get the rest of the spoke in, thats how tight they are.
531colin wrote:Old Campag hubs were drilled so tight you sometimes have to screw 2mm spokes in.
I was quoting on the fly as per normal.
If they can just be bent to fit, I worry about either snapping off the "button" or just weakening the spoke at the bend so that happens on the road. Also won't it put big indentations in the hub? Just thinking about resale value but thats the least of my worries. The point of getting this hub was that it would be usable for a long time.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
The NDS spoke is perfect. .....you will need to adjust the elbow angle, but you always do anyway. Cold setting (ie. bending) the spoke once during building is not an issue for durability.....but they fatigue very quickly if instead of cold-setting them to the right angle you leave them "stressed" ie flexed to the right angle, because every time the wheel goes round the cyclic stress is added to the static stress.
Have a look and see if the holes are countersunk on one side, if the spoke goes in from the "wrong" side it might not fit as well.....although I can't remember which way round you are supposed to do it if only one side of the hole is countersunk...
If the spoke elbow makes a big dent in the flange, this is good because the elbow is supported by the dent.
Have a look and see if the holes are countersunk on one side, if the spoke goes in from the "wrong" side it might not fit as well.....although I can't remember which way round you are supposed to do it if only one side of the hole is countersunk...
If the spoke elbow makes a big dent in the flange, this is good because the elbow is supported by the dent.
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
531colin wrote:Have a look and see if the holes are countersunk on one side, if the spoke goes in from the "wrong" side it might not fit as well.....although I can't remember which way round you are supposed to do it if only one side of the hole is countersunk...
If the spoke elbow makes a big dent in the flange, this is good because the elbow is supported by the dent.
Yeah it is countersunk on both sides.
Cheers guys, if I had known this earlier today I could have it built by now.
Ugo on BR did say something different to what you guys have both said though:
"Bear in mind another drawback of Dura Ace is the tight holes in the rear hub. That prevents you from using spokes with a thicker J bend..."
The operative word there being "prevents".
Code: Select all
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13014600#p19419424
I read that before posting anything here but read the other page about bending them in beforehand too. The one saying "Short elbows might not fit thick hubs, requiring manual bending to reach the angle required for the wheel."
I think Ugo must have meant it "prevents unless you bend them", but who knows. Then again he did say a "thick" j-bend which isn't the same thing as a "short" j-bend.
The good thing is it's the drive side and they don't need bending as much as NDS ones would need to be if they were that same brand on the NDS.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
re the countersink; if it is in one side of the flange only then I think it is OK to fit the spoke either way round, depending on the way the spokes fit best (i.e. most snugly).
In the case of these NDS spokes I would expect the difference between the supposedly 'bad fit' you have and a perfectly snug fit to be just a few microns of material on the flange. Often you can make the fit x2 better right away simply by wiggling the spoke in the hole (at the correct tangent angle of course).
If you take a look at a few well-used spoke flanges, you will realise that the head can settle about 0.25mm and the bend radius will normally settle between 0.25mm and 0.5mm into the flange. This is perfectly normal and nothing to get excited about. I would expect it to be enough to allow your spokes to settle nicely, and then be a perfect fit with just a little setting in the normal way.
The head end won't come off, and the spoke life won't be affected in any way, even if you have to do quite a lot of setting. The thing that will make your wheel unreliable and will lead to spoke breakage is if you don't set it and stress relieve it correctly.
The fit of your spokes is slightly worse than normal, but nothing to get too excited about. It might appear terrible if you haven't built many wheels before but in the grand scheme of things it is probably a bit of a storm in a teacup.
hth
cheers
In the case of these NDS spokes I would expect the difference between the supposedly 'bad fit' you have and a perfectly snug fit to be just a few microns of material on the flange. Often you can make the fit x2 better right away simply by wiggling the spoke in the hole (at the correct tangent angle of course).
If you take a look at a few well-used spoke flanges, you will realise that the head can settle about 0.25mm and the bend radius will normally settle between 0.25mm and 0.5mm into the flange. This is perfectly normal and nothing to get excited about. I would expect it to be enough to allow your spokes to settle nicely, and then be a perfect fit with just a little setting in the normal way.
The head end won't come off, and the spoke life won't be affected in any way, even if you have to do quite a lot of setting. The thing that will make your wheel unreliable and will lead to spoke breakage is if you don't set it and stress relieve it correctly.
The fit of your spokes is slightly worse than normal, but nothing to get too excited about. It might appear terrible if you haven't built many wheels before but in the grand scheme of things it is probably a bit of a storm in a teacup.
hth
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
Cheers Brucey.
All that worries me now is the head on the badly fitting spokes won't quite lie flat but it is really close to flat after manually bending the spoke. It is just a case of getting a bit of tension on it and it will lie flat?
When all that might break is spokes I suppose its not so bad lol. The hub flange isn't going to just break at a hole, the rim isn't likely to and if spokes start snapping at one end or another, meh, it's just spokes. Its the part where you have to walk 10 or 15 miles home I would be wanting to avoid.
I remember a guy a while back (name escapes me) where he said if there was one thing he overlooked the most on his world tour, it was not taking enough spare spokes with him.
That page I read yesterday that said even the same manufacturer could very well give you spokes that don't quite fit, even in their own hubs - then said spokes are ignored way too much as if they are just paper clips or something. The point was spokes could probably be engineered just a little bit better than they are and it would make a wheel stay functional a lot longer.
All that worries me now is the head on the badly fitting spokes won't quite lie flat but it is really close to flat after manually bending the spoke. It is just a case of getting a bit of tension on it and it will lie flat?
When all that might break is spokes I suppose its not so bad lol. The hub flange isn't going to just break at a hole, the rim isn't likely to and if spokes start snapping at one end or another, meh, it's just spokes. Its the part where you have to walk 10 or 15 miles home I would be wanting to avoid.
I remember a guy a while back (name escapes me) where he said if there was one thing he overlooked the most on his world tour, it was not taking enough spare spokes with him.
That page I read yesterday that said even the same manufacturer could very well give you spokes that don't quite fit, even in their own hubs - then said spokes are ignored way too much as if they are just paper clips or something. The point was spokes could probably be engineered just a little bit better than they are and it would make a wheel stay functional a lot longer.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was :(
Stress-relieve your wheel and it will be fine, the spokes will outlast a few rims.
To get the spoke head flush with the hub flange just needs a light tap using a spoke punch, when the spokes are near to full tension, i do it before I stress-relieve.
To get the spoke head flush with the hub flange just needs a light tap using a spoke punch, when the spokes are near to full tension, i do it before I stress-relieve.
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that was NOT
531colin wrote:Stress-relieve your wheel and it will be fine, the spokes will outlast a few rims.
To get the spoke head flush with the hub flange just needs a light tap using a spoke punch, when the spokes are near to full tension, i do it before I stress-relieve.
Cheers. I have done some pics, everything is still fully loose.
The heads are at some funny looking angles though!
The axle rests about where it should in the middle of the rim.
http://i.imgur.com/uc9LUy0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aY0soTr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JPbqEn3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FXhXh4G.jpg
EDIT: Hours later...
All built and almost there for this rear, another half turn all around I'd say. It needs dishing and the NDS seem a bit overly loose. Those Mavics are a pleasure to work on, they have the odd wobble at first (because covering the threads in the beginning can't be super accurate) but once the main wobble is taken out the wheel was almost true to begin with. It ended up being a lot easier than I thought it would.
It took about 40 minutes to lace but I was scared tensioning it, that will be continued tomorrow lol. Already given the parallel spokes a hard, hand hurting squeeze.
Then I can see how short those spokes really are. I would say they could do with being 1mm longer but 2mm would be overkill. Thats annoying since I ordered an odd size for the NDS, you live and learn.
I think the spokes will end up about 1/4 to 1/2 into the slot, none are below the slot, is it safe?
Whats funny is I rode around on garbage wheels for 2 years with all the spokes nothing like long enough, no problems whatsoever, but I think I must have been getting away with it. Those cheap factory wheels are slightly shocking.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
Have a look here....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=49702&hilit=machine+built&start=30
Your pictures show the spokes bowing away from the hub flange.....I correct that before I wind on the tension, but I guess stress-relieving should do the same?
Your pictures show the spokes bowing away from the hub flange.....I correct that before I wind on the tension, but I guess stress-relieving should do the same?
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
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Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
I haven't found it does, but then I'm a novice. I've found it better to bend the spokes when they are slacker something similar to Sheldon's method of "Initial Spoke Adjustment" http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html or even using a thumb. But then I'm not sure if I've tried with extremely tight fitting spoke holes.531colin wrote:Your pictures show the spokes bowing away from the hub flange.....I correct that before I wind on the tension, but I guess stress-relieving should do the same?
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
I don't peddle bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
Cheers guys.
I know non-drive side spokes go at only about 60% of the tension of drive side spokes... but on a typical set of wheels (same ERD and flange sizes aren't that different) will the NDS spokes end up at a lower tension than the front wheel spokes?
I can only guess they have to because then you'd have a rear and front wheel at "overall" the same tension over the whole wheel, with DS spokes making up for the slack in the NDS spokes.
Right now the NDS spokes are a bit lower in pitch to the front wheel I already built, but not a lot.
I just don't want all the NDS spokes loosening like they did on my bottom of the range factory wheels.
I know non-drive side spokes go at only about 60% of the tension of drive side spokes... but on a typical set of wheels (same ERD and flange sizes aren't that different) will the NDS spokes end up at a lower tension than the front wheel spokes?
I can only guess they have to because then you'd have a rear and front wheel at "overall" the same tension over the whole wheel, with DS spokes making up for the slack in the NDS spokes.
Right now the NDS spokes are a bit lower in pitch to the front wheel I already built, but not a lot.
I just don't want all the NDS spokes loosening like they did on my bottom of the range factory wheels.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
I just don't want all the NDS spokes loosening like they did on my bottom of the range factory wheels.
Then you may end up resorting to some sort of weak thread locking compound.
As the gap between tight enough spokes to prevent loosening and so tight that things get damaged, can be elusive at times in more heavily dished wheels.
Re: Thanks Shimano, what a waste of time that... wasn't!
I'm just going to play it by ear, literally.
I have one other rear wheel in the house thats a 700c so I will use it as a guide.
I have one other rear wheel in the house thats a 700c so I will use it as a guide.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.