Derailleur quality question

[fastpedaller]

I have a 7 x 3 setup, and in the past have used a Shimano Altus rear derailleur which I have found to be good except that the teeth wore off the jockey wheels . Am I missing out by not getting a "better quality" derailleur? Are the more expensive ones actually any better from a longevity or gearchange quality point of view? I'd like advice (maybe from someone in the trade?) rather than assume because it's more expensive it must be better .... I'm thinking material/bearings quality here rather than the odd couple of grammes saved. Thanks in anticipation

[simonineaston]

Well, all I can say is that I've just bought a bike with a Zee mech. and I've been pretty amazed at the click snick quality of the shift... It shifts almost instantly, bang on every time. Yummy Scrummy.

[foxyrider]

Up to a point you will get better materials / durability if you move up range from your Altus. There will be less bits of plastic, better tolerances and hopefully longer life. You might not see a difference in performance immediately but almost certainly it will be better 'down the line'. Mechanical gear mechanisms don't 'know' which shifters/chain/sprockets you are using which means that you can run pretty much whichever one you want - its the shifter that determines how far it moves so me using 10 speed mech with 9 sprockets works fine with my 9 speed shifters, in a few weeks it'll be moving across 11!

[beardy]

The only significant step that I have noticed is when you get the expensive sealed bearing pulleys on the XT (I guess Ultegra, XTR and Dura_ace too) dérailleurs. These pulleys can outlive the cheaper ones many times over.

Apart from that all levels seem to wear out just as quickly as each other.

So I buy cheap replacement dérailleurs and when the cheap pulleys wear, re-use the ones from a worn out XT.

[Brucey]

I have a 7 x 3 setup, and in the past have used a Shimano Altus rear derailleur which I have found to be good except that the teeth wore off the jockey wheels . Am I missing out by not getting a "better quality" derailleur? Are the more expensive ones actually any better from a longevity or gearchange quality point of view? I'd like advice (maybe from someone in the trade?) rather than assume because it's more expensive it must be better .... I'm thinking material/bearings quality here rather than the odd couple of grammes saved.

when the teeth wear off the pulleys it can be because

a) the indexing wasn't set right (or the mech is bent out of line)
b) the pulley bearings were draggy
c) the chain was stretched (worn)
d) the transmission was dirty
e) too much time running cross-chained
f) too many miles.

You do get better bearings in more expensive pulleys but you rarely get a much better material in the pulley body itself; notable exceptions are some models of Dura-Ace rear mech where the top pulley is made of a very hard material. It is not all good news though; these pulleys are pretty noisy in use.

I like the pulleys on XT/Ultegra quality rear mechs, 9s type. They run quietly and are pretty durable, provided you look after them.

cheers

[Manc33]

I would buy an old XT rear mech before I bought a new Acera/Altus/Alivio or SLX even.

Often the old XT mech will be cheaper anyway and to me its worth it to gain a ceramic upper jockey wheel.

Also, the cable routing is miles better on that M772 than any of the cheaper ones, maybe SLX has it now, I don't even look.

Thing is I ride around wondering what the XT one would be like if I had SLX, wondering what the SLX one would be like if I had the Alivio and so on. For this reason I just buy used XT/Ultegra all the time and sometimes if it is at a knock down price (on eBay where they just have a bad title or not many views, or its caked in dirt) DA/XTR.

The best stuff to buy is the stuff caked in dirt if you can be bothered cleaning it up.

To be honest the Alivio I had served me well, I think it is a lot better than the Altus and there's quite a big jump in the quality, but it never changed gear like the M772 I upgraded to. The Alivio in turn was always a bit better at shifting than the Altus. The problem to me is the Alivio was £30 or something like that when you can get a better used mech for probably two thirds of the cost.

Used Ultegra mechs that are 15+ years old still to this day have no play in the swingarm. The Altus that came on my MTB went loose within months from new.

[Brucey]

But even the XT mechs don't have a cartridge bearing in the bottom wheel and Ultegra does, at least the 6500 and 6600 both do and the M772 doesn't...

Maybe, but the RD-M750 ( 1st gen 9s) does have a cartridge bearing in the lower pulley, and a ceramic bushing in the top. Both are very durable if you look after them.

cheers

[Manc33]

But even the XT mechs don't have a cartridge bearing in the bottom wheel and Ultegra does, at least the 6500 and 6600 both do and the M772 doesn't...

Maybe, but the RD-M750 ( 1st gen 9s) does have a cartridge bearing in the lower pulley, and a ceramic bushing in the top. Both are very durable if you look after them.

cheers

I wonder why they chop and change it. I had a M730 that didn't have a cartridge in the bottom.

So the M730 didn't, the M750 did, then the M772 didn't again (not to mention any models between these).

I'm not sure how much better a cartridge bearing is over those metal tube looking ones in cheaper mechs, but I know having a ceramic one coupled with a cartridge in the bottom cuts out just about all the noise from my drivetrain. I was shocked that it could be so quiet but I did have a new chain on.

[fastpedaller]

I have a 7 x 3 setup, and in the past have used a Shimano Altus rear derailleur which I have found to be good except that the teeth wore off the jockey wheels . Am I missing out by not getting a "better quality" derailleur? Are the more expensive ones actually any better from a longevity or gearchange quality point of view? I'd like advice (maybe from someone in the trade?) rather than assume because it's more expensive it must be better .... I'm thinking material/bearings quality here rather than the odd couple of grammes saved.

when the teeth wear off the pulleys it can be because

a) the indexing wasn't set right (or the mech is bent out of line)
b) the pulley bearings were draggy
c) the chain was stretched (worn)
d) the transmission was dirty
e) too much time running cross-chained
f) too many miles.

You do get better bearings in more expensive pulleys but you rarely get a much better material in the pulley body itself; notable exceptions are some models of Dura-Ace rear mech where the top pulley is made of a very hard material. It is not all good news though; these pulleys are pretty noisy in use.

I like the pulleys on XT/Ultegra quality rear mechs, 9s type. They run quietly and are pretty durable, provided you look after them.

cheers

Thanks for the info everyone - I suspect (d) and (f) were the culprits, as the pulleys had done about 20k miles (on mucky Norfolk Roads and the occasional beach) Otherwise the mech was surprisingly good (no play in pivots at all). I think I'll stick with the Altus, but see if the better pulleys are available as a replacement (but I realise this probably won't make any difference where the pulley teeth are concerned).

[fastpedaller]

Crikey - I've just looked at the prices of pulley sets! The high-end ones cost 6 times the price of the low-end ones. I suspect they don't last 6 times as long, so I'll stick with the cheapies!

[Brucey]

yup those pulleys are expensive. You can buy aluminium ones with cartridge bearings in them on ebay but they are noisy and one set of seals isn't enough; shimano ones have a shield as well as the seals on the cartridge bearing; if you regrease the bearing once every six months they last well.

With what, in hindsight, appears to be fantastic planning, but in reality is more a happy accident, I bought several M750 mechs when they were last year's model. I don't think I paid more than £30 for any of them. I also bought a couple used at a cycle jumble, for a fraction of that. I have one spare set of pulleys (cleaned and greased) that I can rotate between them; swapping pulleys takes about two minutes.

I reckon a Claris mech is good enough for most folk and costs pennies if you shop around, so I'd suggest you try one of those if you don't want to spend too much on what is, after all just a consumable part.

cheers

[simonineaston]

Now I remember why I liked hub gears so much...

[fastpedaller]

Now I remember why I liked hub gears so much...

Yep - I understand that sentiment........ I am almost tempted with a hub gear, but it's the weight and wide ratio gears that stop me.

[Brucey]

actually I have for many years done more miles on IGHs than on derailleur gears. The latter are for racing, some types of touring, and some types of MTBing. Everything else -the bulk of my miles- is done on IGHs.

If you live somewhere really hilly then not any IGH will do. But for the vast majority of folk in the UK, I think that for commuting or local utility rides, they would be better off with something like a simple 3s hub gear than most other types of gearing. It is a lot less hassle.

Oddly enough I have recently built a machine with an IGH as a mid-drive. There is a modern Ultegra mech at the back, with ~12% intervals on the cassette. I use the IGH to shift about twice as often as the derailleur, even though the IGH has 33% intervals....

cheers

[Merry_Wanderer]

I have just put 2nd hand front and rear Alivio derailleurs from my MTB onto my Surly Troll. They have done around 3,000 miles and work fine, if a bit clunkily compared to the Deore on my Disc Trucker. I would have stuck with an IGH as per my Brompton for my commute but my knees didn't like the gear options of the hub gear on the 2 hills.