Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

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Manc33
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Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Manc33 »

I read you shouldn't lube the insides of cable housing with a wet lube, but I used clean streak on the housing and tried it "bone dry" and the shifter is probably three times harder to move - and the gear changes are pitiful.

Sprayed some of that foaming "Tri-Flow" down the housing and it is butter smooth again.

Cue the...

"In a few months you'll regret it, the housing will be gunked up"

I don't know if it is because my gear cable (Jagwire) is 1.2mm or what, but through SP-41 housing it can't realistically work without it being lubricated. If the cable is meant to be 1.1mm then it explains it.

I remember getting XTR cables and those were thinner, you could tell.

Maybe its Jagwire 1.2mm, Shimano 1.1mm and the XTR black ones 1mm?
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Brucey
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Brucey »

most cables work better if they are lubed.

The problems come if

- there is a coating on the inner cable (which can come off) or

- the lube makes the liner soften/swell up

To counter the latter possibility you have the choice of using either a special lube for this purpose, or one that has been otherwise proven to work reliably with your chosen cable system.

Random lubes in random cables is usually a recipe for random results...

cheers
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Philip Benstead
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Philip Benstead »

Brucey wrote:most cables work better if they are lubed.

The problems come if

- there is a coating on the inner cable (which can come off) or

- the lube makes the liner soften/swell up

To counter the latter possibility you have the choice of using either a special lube for this purpose, or one that has been otherwise proven to work reliably with your chosen cable system.

Random lubes in random cables is usually a recipe for random results...

cheers


Should we use silicon spay

Eg http://www.ukfixings.com/product/342/89 ... oCfBjw_wcB
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclists' in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic
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Mick F
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Mick F »

I've had the same outers on since 2007 and I've not put a scrap of lube in them. However, the short length to the rear mech has been lubed because it seems a different sort of cable, but perhaps only twice. It's not something I consider generally or even worry myself about.

Mr Campag states:
Casings are supplied pre-lubricated and do not require any additional lubrication.
Mick F. Cornwall
Brucey
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Brucey »

Philip Benstead wrote:
Brucey wrote:most cables work better if they are lubed.

The problems come if

- there is a coating on the inner cable (which can come off) or

- the lube makes the liner soften/swell up

To counter the latter possibility you have the choice of using either a special lube for this purpose, or one that has been otherwise proven to work reliably with your chosen cable system.

Random lubes in random cables is usually a recipe for random results...

cheers


Should we use silicon spay

Eg http://www.ukfixings.com/product/342/89 ... oCfBjw_wcB


pass....

if anyone wants to try every possible permutation of lube, cable, and service condition, go ahead, knock yourself out.

Otherwise it is probably best to stick with something you know works for you, using your parts in your service condition....

cheers
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fastpedaller
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by fastpedaller »

Before lubing it would probably be worth taking a spare piece of liner and putting it in a small dish and immerse it in the chosen lubricant - After a few days if the liner has degraded in any way, then don't use that lube!
Many years ago I bought a piece of "petrol filler" hose from a local store, and tested it in a dish with a little petrol - within seconds the petrol went black and was swimming with little black bits.... hasty trip back to the store to return it, but at least I didn't get clogged carburettors (sp?)
Psamathe
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Psamathe »

LBS I normally use does not lube the cables when fitting them to the sleeve (standard cable in standard housing).

Recently happened to be in Evans and they notices a cable fraying badly (it really was on the point of failing) and when they changed it they put standard wet chain lube on the cable (Finish Line or similar).

Both ways seem to work. Though that is with Tiagra STIs and I wonder if cable routing under the bar tape might have tighter bends and present more friction ?

Ian
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interestedcp
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by interestedcp »

Well, cable housing manufacturers generally uses silicone grease to lubricate the cables and cable housing. Shimano even sells a small tub of "cable grease" for their SP-41 and BC-9000 teflon cable sets. :
http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-SIS-SP41- ... B001GSSNCM

The point is that silicone grease is so much better than any oil based grease: it doesn't attack the cable housing or make o-rings or other seals swell up. It doesn't attract water that can make cables stick in the winter, nor does it becomes sticky at very low temperatures. It is water repellent and a corrosion-inhibitor, and lubricate well enough. It doesn't become a grinding paste when dirt enters the cable housing.

The downside is that "silicone grease" covers a wide variety of different products, some less suited for cables than others like when they are running too thick (actually paste instead of grease), others very expensive since they are dielectric.
So a certain modicum of care is needed when purchasing silicone grease.

Silicone oil is excellent for flushing dirt out of cable housing while lubricating at the same time. Also great for cleats and click-pedals since it cleans and lubricate, but isn't greasy so it doesn't attract dirt.
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Brucey
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Brucey »

you can easily test for a rapid swelling or softening reaction with a chosen lubricant; it is rather less easy to test for a longer term reaction. I have tested polymers for reactions to solvents and oils; some swell a little, and slowly, but carry on swelling/softening without letup for years at a time. Eventually it gets to the point that the part is no good any more.

I do not think that silicone greases are very good lubricants

1. They do not have a high film strength

2. they are inert. This means that there is no EP action, no detergent action, no corrosion inhibition.

Aerosol spray Silicon lubes contain solvents that may attack a cable liner, even if what is left behind is fairly inert.

Honestly, you may as well (subject to reaction) use Vaseline as use silicon grease, inside a cable. It is a lot cheaper. Some bike shops lube the top section of every cable with Vaseline because it helps stop water from getting in.

I don't think that a sticky lube that attracts dirt is a big problem if you use it on a cable BTW.

However I wouldn't use a wet lube meant for a chain unless I was absolutely sure that it wouldn't dry out and jam the cable. Plenty of wet lubes do that to chains....

cheers
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interestedcp
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by interestedcp »

Brucey wrote:
I do not think that silicone greases are very good lubricants


Nevertheless, this is what Shimano uses for their "old" SP-41 cables and their new BC-9000 PFTE cables. And Shimano is big enough to have in-house engineers with tribology knowledge. I am also pretty sure that both Jagwire and Campagnolo cables comes with silicone grease, though I haven't tried the new 11 speed Campy cable sets.

AFAIK, silicone grease for cables is also very common in the automotive industry.

Brucey wrote:1. They do not have a high film strength

2. they are inert. This means that there is no EP action, no detergent action, no corrosion inhibition.


Well, it probably depends on the silicone grease brand: they are often advertised with having very good corrosion resistance and working as a rust preventive. Silicone grease is water repellent and have a strong resilience against being washed out with water.

Brucey wrote:I don't think that a sticky lube that attracts dirt is a big problem if you use it on a cable BTW.


Not a big problem if you use it sparingly. But oil+sand=commercial abrasion paste. Put that in a constricted tube with a steel wire that are see-sawing back and forth under tension, and you got an excellent cutting device.
I have discarded some cable housing that had deep internal ruts caused by this. Of course, I had flushed the cable housing with a lot of oil before that because the cable was stuck because of frost and water, so there was probably way too much oil in there.

IMHO, silicone grease makes a lot of sense with modern cable housing with PFTE-liners. It is really evident after a while how silicone grease doesn't attract dirt or gum up.
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Manc33
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Manc33 »

One reason I used Tri-Flow was it says it has "PTFE" in and it is supposedly super slippery.

Before using that stuff I just used to use chain oil and it never didn't shift properly. I guess after say a year of leaving chain oil in then it would get iffy/gunky.

Blasting clean streak through the housing seems to always bring out grey stuff, but its so small its like a metallic powder.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Brucey
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Brucey »

interestedcp wrote:
Brucey wrote:1. They do not have a high film strength

2. they are inert. This means that there is no EP action, no detergent action, no corrosion inhibition.


Well, it probably depends on the silicone grease brand: they are often advertised with having very good corrosion resistance and working as a rust preventive. Silicone grease is water repellent and have a strong resilience against being washed out with water.


well such claims are often a crock of poop IMHO; there are better things than that for each and every characteristic. As soon as a silicon grease film is breached with salty water, corrosion will start, at which point you need something chemically active to hold back corrosion, not something passive and inert. The additives that work well in other lubricants are either not used or are not compatible with silicon greases. I think they are OK on stainless cables, but they do not have stainless reinforcement in the outer housing; this commonly goes rusty and often causes the cable to fail prematurely. The 'special silicon grease' used in such cables does nothing to inhibit corrosion. Like I said before you may as well use Vaseline.

interestedcp wrote:
Brucey wrote:I don't think that a sticky lube that attracts dirt is a big problem if you use it on a cable BTW.


Not a big problem if you use it sparingly. But oil+sand=commercial abrasion paste. Put that in a constricted tube with a steel wire that are see-sawing back and forth under tension, and you got an excellent cutting device.
I have discarded some cable housing that had deep internal ruts caused by this. Of course, I had flushed the cable housing with a lot of oil before that because the cable was stuck because of frost and water, so there was probably way too much oil in there.

IMHO, silicone grease makes a lot of sense with modern cable housing with PFTE-liners. It is really evident after a while how silicone grease doesn't attract dirt or gum up.


if dirt is getting in then so is water. There is a good part of your problem; the dirt won't help for sure, but the lubricant film will fail quickly in the presence of water. Water is an excellent cutting lubricant for working many plastics and rubbers. If you use sealed cable ferrules where necessary you can use anything you like to lube the cables with.

I think that if you actually put a smear of silicon grease on your bike frame and next to it a smear of other ordinary grease, after a short period they will both be equally dirty. The idea the silicon greases don't pick up dirt is simply not accurate IME, certainly not in the quantities that are required to keep a cable lubricated, anyway.

If you look in a good bearing manufacturer's catalogue you will find specialist bearings that are packed with different greases including silicon greases. Take a look at the load ratings for these bearings; I think you will find that the load and speed ratings for these bearings are somewhat reduced vs the exact same bearing when packed with a decent lubricant instead.

The last time I looked into it in detail I found that Silicon based greases have many advantages in certain applications but bicycles are not amongst them. If there are new products that have better test scores then by all means share the details.

cheers
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Vantage
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Vantage »

I've always lubed my cables, even in my MTB days.
Dirt can get in, but that's why some bright spark came up with the novel idea of servicing our bikes. Shove a bit of WD40 to drive out the dirt and water, let it dry a bit then a light film of grease or oil (whichever you prefer) and Bob's your aunties inbred second cousins brother in law.
Bill


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Manc33
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by Manc33 »

You can get a 1.2mm cable on eBay for 99p delivered but the cheapest 1.1mm cable on there is £2.70. :evil:

I ended up putting my old cable back in, its either that or swap to 5mm housing which I'm not doing. :roll:

I was impressed with those Jagwire ones though, clamped it on the rear mech about 3 times and it doesn't look clamped Maybe its a 1.1mm cable with thicker plastic on it or something. It seems uncrushable. The only cable I have ever seen do that. Shame its 0.1mm too thick. :roll:

By sheer fluke Clark's cables are 1.1mm and those are always the ones I have bought and they have always worked. I thought the Jagwire one (1.2mm) felt a bit more "boingy" (stronger) when I was unpacking it.

Both 1.0mm and 1.2mm cables shift worse than 1.1mm on my setup, with standard SP41 housing. The difference between 1.0mm and 1.1mm isn't as bad as going from 1.1mm to 1.2mm, but those 1.0mm ones dug into the BB cable guide a bit and had more friction to them than 1.1mm does. On a 1.2mm cable it would hardly shift after degreasing inside the housing, until I lubricated it (hence this thread). When lubricated it shifts alright, but its too thick for SP41.

Those 1.0mm ones were XTR black cables but I wasn't impressed. I only got the kit for the housing and ferrules.

So if they make a 1.0mm cable, that's most expensive because they have to make a thinner cable as strong as a 1.2mm cable is? I think I get it then (why 1.2mm ones are 99p but 1.1mm ones are more than twice that).
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andy753
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Re: Lube cable housing? Yes! No! Toss a coin!

Post by andy753 »

I add a little lithium grease to the cable but some would argue that this adds weight! For touring though, I think this is a good idea.
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