Frame tube identification.

[Vetus Ossa]

I have a question that I think won’t be able to be answered, as I am not able to give much information.
I have a frame that I am trying to find out what tubing it was built with. It’s a Woodrup.
I tried to cold set the rear dropouts and it was absolutely impossible to do so, it just sprang back to where it started, so thinking 753?
I was told by the guy I bought it off that it was a 1976 frame, which it may or may not be, he didn’t really know much about bikes. I know 753 was introduced about then so possible. It takes a 27mm seatpost, but guess that’s just the size the seat tube was reamed. I also know that 753 was silver soldered, but can’t tell the difference between that and ordinary braze on viewing.
Any ideas?

[Valbrona]

I can't imagine Woodrup in the 1970s using anything other than Reynolds. So it is obviously that metal matrix stuff impregnated with kryptonite that Reynolds were well known for in the 70s.

[Brucey]

well only a very few builders were allowed access to 753 tubing in the early years, but maybe woodrups were one of them. Worth looking into that....

The 27.0 mm seat pin is not necessarily a coincidence; IIRC it is in fact a strong indicator of either a 531SL frame or a 753 frame from that period. Both these tubesets were originally (in the mid 1970s) only commonly available in metric sizes and all these frames have a 27.0mm seat pin.

If you have a silver brazed 531SL frame it will be quite difficult to distinguish from a 753 frame; the weights will be similar to within two or three ounces and the rear triangle will retain a lot of strength even in 531SL if it is silver brazed.

So I'd check that it is silver brazed, then weigh it. You can tell silver braze metal because it is whiter in colour, where standard braze metal is the same colour as brass, more or less, much yellower. Note that the dropouts may be hard brazed even if the other lugged joints are silver brazed.

Personally I would suggest that it would be folly to cold-set a silver-brazed frame of that quality, even if it is 531SL; it may just break, if not immediately, then later on. Ask yourself why you are doing it; I'd suggest that wrecking an irreplaceable frameset merely in order to fit some here-today-gone-tomorrow wheelset would be a poor choice.....

Best to build it up (eg with a first generation cassette hub) to run a 'compact 6' freewheel or if you want more gears I think you should be able to do a 7 from 9 or an 8 from 10 setup on a cassette hub that was originally a 5s one (yes they do exist) at 120-122mm oln. If it is 126mm (rarer in 1976) then there are more choices.

I have a 531SL raleigh SBDU frame from around that time. It is 120mm oln. Am I going to cold set it?

Hell no! It'd be like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa!

Cheers

[Steveo2020]

Hi

At the Bespoked show in Bristol recently I was chatting to one of their guys about a Woodrup frame I have recently bought (531c, early nineties) and they said that if I emailed them the frame number they could give me the details of when the frame was made, who by, for whom, where etc. Good chance they could give you a definitive answer?

By the way, anyone know how much lighter a 531sl tube set is than a 531c?

Cheers

Steve

[Brucey]

Hi

At the Bespoked show in Bristol recently I was chatting to one of their guys about a Woodrup frame I have recently bought (531c, early nineties) and they said that if I emailed them the frame number they could give me the details of when the frame was made, who by, for whom, where etc. Good chance they could give you a definitive answer?

By the way, anyone know how much lighter a 531sl tube set is than a 531c?

Cheers

Steve

IIRC woodrup have lost some of their records too, so earlier than a certain date there is confusion enough that this page...

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Woodrup/Woodrup_serial_numbers.htm

exists and is useful even though much of the information is contradictory.

531C is usually about 8oz heavier than 753 and 531SL is closer in weight to 753 than 531C. But exact weights are difficult to quote; they vary with frame size (obviously) and also between tubesets because a metric set weighs different to an imperial set weighs different to a French gauge set, and all that is before you allow for the fact that builders will trim the butts differently, or substitute other tube gauges if they feel fit, usually (but not always) in very large or very small frame sizes.... and lugsets etc vary too.

cheers

[tim-b]

Hi
I emailed Woodrup regarding a track bike and they were very helpful (and quick), definitely worth a shot... sales@woodrupcycles.com
Regards
tim-b

[Vetus Ossa]

Thanks for the above comments chaps.
Btw, the reason I wanted to cold set the rear end was because it was set to 120mm and had a wheel spaced at 125mm fitted. It was possible to fit and remove the wheel by parting the dropouts, but was far from easy as I unfortunately have weak wrists. I have now replaced the wheel that was fitted with a 5 speed campag hub with correct spacers fitted so that's no longer a problem.
I actually have emailed woodrup's twice requesting information (politely I thought?) for said frame information, but for whatever reason they don't seem inclined to reply...I can't ask again can I.
Looking at that Woodrup register, though as Brucey said, it's a bit jumbled, the frame number fits, so I think the frame is genuine and not just rebadged.

[thirdcrank]

IIRC, there's a comment somewhere on Sheldon Brown about the days when every lightweight bikeshop in the UK had a framebuilder working in a room at the back. "When I was a lad" there were three such shops within spitting distance of each other just off Burley Road in Leeds. Walt Ormsby's, now long-gone, like so many other bike shops, JRJ which has had several reincarnations and locations under the surname of its original proprietor, Bob Jackson, and lastly Woodrupps, which has moved about a quarter of a mile to Kirkstall Road where it's still an lbs with a framebuilder upstairs.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not a vast retail chain with staff to handle this type of query. Not only is this the last framebuilding lbs in what has become LS4, it's one of the last in the known universe, especially beyond the boundaries of Yorkshire. I fancy they get queries like this from all over those bits of the world where UK lightweight bikes are cherished and it can't be easy to keep up.

[Vetus Ossa]

IIRC, there's a comment somewhere on Sheldon Brown about the days when every lightweight bikeshop in the UK had a framebuilder working in a room at the back. "When I was a lad" there were three such shops within spitting distance of each other just off Burley Road in Leeds. Walt Ormsby's, now long-gone, like so many other bike shops, JRJ which has had several reincarnations and locations under the surname of its original proprietor, Bob Jackson, and lastly Woodrupps, which has moved about a quarter of a mile to Kirkstall Road where it's still an lbs with a framebuilder upstairs.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not a vast retail chain with staff to handle this type of query. Not only is this the last framebuilding lbs in what has become LS4, it's one of the last in the known universe, especially beyond the boundaries of Yorkshire. I fancy they get queries like this from all over those bits of the world where UK lightweight bikes are cherished and it can't be easy to keep up.

Understood and appreciated, just disappointed