Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by Brucey »

as per above post although one comment;

if a QR rear axle then the most likely thread on a hub like that is 10mm x 1mm.

Well..... the cones and locknuts were indeed 'loose' in that they were no longer part of a single assembly.... :wink:

BTW you may have dodged a bullet there because a broken QR axle will often make itself known when the frame breaks....
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 13780
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
One word of warning, if attempting to remove freewheel yourself (DIY) freewheels can be very VERY VERY tight and you may well struggle to undo it on your own, even with a long wrench you still need to hold the wheel with your other hand.

With a helper and placing an upright wheel with tyre up against a wall it might be impossible.
I struggle in a vice with both hands.

But get the tools for sure so you can at least tackle the job, even if unsuccessful it will do next time.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
John_S
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by John_S »

Hi all,

Thanks again for all of the advice and I've not managed to get the cassette off yet but I'm still trying.

Before I go on with where I am now I didn't know whether it helps to say that when I mentioned that a ball bearing dropped out it fell out of the non-drive side.

Below I've tried to attach a photo of my quick release skewer if this helps.

Also there was a nut in the middle of the cassette and this came loose instantly and so I've taken a photo of that as well. I'm now left with a hole in the middle of the cassette and it seems like the Halfords lock nut tool should go in there judging by the shape of it but it's just ever so slightly too big and won't go in.

Thanks again for the help & replies!

John
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (25.77 KiB) Viewed 812 times
image.jpg
image.jpg (31.48 KiB) Viewed 812 times
image.jpg
image.jpg (22.7 KiB) Viewed 812 times
image.jpg
image.jpg (20.02 KiB) Viewed 812 times
image.jpg
image.jpg (23.67 KiB) Viewed 812 times
John_S
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by John_S »

And this is the cassette including a photo of the tool that looks like it should go into the hole but it's too big.

Thanks,

John
Attachments
image.jpg
image.jpg (36.02 KiB) Viewed 812 times
image.jpg
image.jpg (36.44 KiB) Viewed 812 times
image.jpg
image.jpg (32.98 KiB) Viewed 812 times
User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 13780
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Yes that's a cassette tool for sure.

You need a Freewheel tool.

The cheaper freewheel tools have a large recess that allows for removal of cog unit with axel in place.

Don't forget a new axel and balls as you at it.

Good luck.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by Brucey »

If you can't get the freewheel off (it is a Freewheel, not a cassette that you have there....) don't worry about it, just whack a new axle & balls in there.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John_S
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by John_S »

Hi All,

Thanks for the additional update & advice and I'll start looking for a freewheel extrator tool to buy.

Following the message from recordacefromnew I think that they have got my bike spot on in the link that they've provided. I bought the bike secondhand and I wasn't sure what year it was new in but reading the spec on the link that they provided that appears to be my bike so it's actually slightly newer than I thought it was.

The only reason for mentioning the age above is it's potentially relevant to the extent of work that I need to undertake. The person I bought the bike from used it as an all year around commuter, they never did any cleaning or maintenance on the bike and it was kept outside all year around. Therefore it had already had a hard life by the time that I got it. I bought it in 2010 and not long after getting it a mobile bike mechanic looked it over at a Dr Bike session and replaced the rear cassette and the chain. Since then I've replaced the brake pads and cables. But apart from that it's not had anything done to it. I didn't get too much of a chance to use it at first because I had a 60 mile journey to work which I did by train followed by a short walk. However having moved just over 10 miles away from work it's now used on my daily 20 mile roundtrip whatever the weather. Therefore it's just completed a winters commute with all that the elements threw at.

I'm not sure if anybody will be able to tell from the poor quality photos that I've been able to upload but from this is anybody able to tell which parts can be reused once cleaned and which need replacing?

I read above that I need to check the condition of where the bearings to make sure that it's not pitted/ grooved. If it comes to the point of the hub needeing replacing I take it that the wheel would need rebuilding?

I'm just trying to work out how much all of this might add up. In an ideal world I was trying to keep the repair bill down. This is because the friend that I bought the bike from is quite a bit taller than me. Whilst I can ride the bike fine it's not the ideal

Anyway back to the task at hand
John_S
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by John_S »

Oops because I accidentally clicked on post on my phone before finishing.

What I was saying was whilst I can ride the bike ok it's not the ideal fit for me. As a result my long term plan is to replace it when funds allow but that point is not now. I'm hoping that this bike would last another year and get through another winter without having to spend a lot on it just to keep it road worthy/ safe.

Anyway back to the current task and do all of the sprockets need to come off before a can service the bearings on the hub on the drive side? I'm assuming yes because without removing the sprockets I wasn't sure how to get at the bearings on the drive side which are in the freehub? Also if I can buy a freehub extractor tool will the sprockets come off the freehub (are all the sprockets together called a cassette) with the unlocking of the freehub also release the sprockets or is there a stage that I'm missing to get the sprockets/cassette off.

Thanks again for all of the tips & advice!

John
milkonesugar
Posts: 13
Joined: 11 Jan 2015, 6:20pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by milkonesugar »

I found this video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_axwV6sfaAs it'll show you the whole process.

It looks as if your axle has snapped so you'll have to replace it, you'll need to measure yours probably to get the right size; Halfords have some; http://www.halfords.com/cycling/parts/wheels those, however are not quick release but solid axles.

If you search for Shimano freewheel removers you should be able to find the one you need.

The freewheel doesn't have to come off to change the axle but it would make it all a lot easier... also, the freewheel will/should come off as one unit, as you can see in the video.

Good luck with it, it's not as complicated as it seems!
John_S
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by John_S »

Hi milkonesugar,

Thanks for your message as it's really helpful. That video is really good and has shown me exactly what I need to do. Also thanks for pointing out perhaps what should have been obvious to me that the axle is broken.

However I will now have to get a freewheel removal / extractor tool. I'm sorry to ask more questions but how do I know which freewheel removal tool to buy?

Can I buy anything labeled as a Shimano freewheel removal tool such as this?

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-tlfw30-multiple-freewheel-remover-prod870/

I'm a bit confused because there seem to be lots of free hub removal tools such as the ones on the following page (if the search page works on the link below).

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?n ... ver&page=1

Also I appreciate that this is a slightly different question but whilst my rear wheel is in a state of disassembly should I also be able to use the cassette removal tool to get the cogs off the freewheel because whilst I'm doing all of this I thought that I'd give these a good clean because it'll be easier to clean them thoroughly now as opposed to when everything is connected to the bike?

Lastly when I'm thinking about the individual parts that I'm going to have to buy such as a new axle, maybe bearings and other parts it's now started me thinking about other parts on the bike (which we now think is from 2006). Before I bought it from a friend he used it for all year around all weather commuting when it was stored outside, it was never cleaned and none of the components were replaced.

Since I've had it a cycle mechanic replaced the cassette & chain plus I've replaced cables and brake pads but everything else on the bike is original and has been serviced. Therefore the hubs have never been serviced and items such as the rims have never been replaced. It had quite a hard life before I got the bike and now I do roughly 4,000 to 5,000 miles a year in all weathers on my commute.

I'm saving up to replace the bike, because it's not the ideal fit for me because my friend who had the bike before me was a fair bit taller than me. However I've not saved enough yet but I'm wondering if at this stage given that I want the bike to last at least another year and go through another winter should I invest some of the money that I've saved into new parts right now? I wondered if it might make sense, partly for safety sake, to buy a new wheel which comes with hubs and also buy a new cassette and chain? Or would this idea be throwing away money that I'm saving towards a new bike when I could repair what I have with a new axle plus cleaning regreasing what I already have?

Thanks again for any thoughts and advice because I'd be lost without this help!

John
User avatar
recordacefromnew
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Dec 2012, 3:17pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by recordacefromnew »

If I were you I would buy this freewheel remover:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FREEWHEEL-BLO ... 1151499910

If you buy it from a "shop" by mail order just the p&p may exceed the price above, imho there is little to choose between different makes as long as it is the correct one.

Dismantling a freewheel is a hard, messy job that is not recommended. If you replace a worn freewheel you should also replace the worn chain at the same time, but if the chain was never too worn you might not have to replace the freewheel. To see whether the chain is worth replacing you can measure the length of the chain when in tension. The length of 12 complete links should be 12 inches when the chain is new - if this is exceeded by 1/8" or more both the chain and freewheel will have been too far gone and it is probably more economical to run both to the ground - using a new chain with a worn freewheel or old chain with new freewheel will accelerate the wear of the new component and/or the chain may skip. See http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

It is worthwhile checking the rim for excessive wear for safety, see http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-026/000.html. You could also check the headset/steering for excessive play/wear, similarly the bottom bracket by rotating the chainset without the chain.

Because new parts are expensive (it is often cheaper to buy a complete bike, whether new or used, than buying all the components), eventually there comes a point when it may make better economical sense to replace the complete bike, but obviously when that is depends on how worn various parts are. You could get a decent commuter for just over £200 new from e.g. Decathlon. Better discount is available in Autumn/Winter.
gregoryoftours
Posts: 2234
Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by gregoryoftours »

It will take quite some time doing the repair and sourcing the bits/tools, but if you can spare that time to do the repair on the cheap it will tide you over for a bit if you're thinking of replacing the bike relatively soon, rather than buying a new wheel etc.

It is a job that's possible to learn to do on your own, but I agree that it's best to do this repair with someone who knows how to do it already if possible - it's loads easier showing rather than trying to explain what constitutes excessive free play in the bearings, how tight things should be nipped up, etc.

If by any chance you live in Sheffield there is a bike kitchen I can send you a link to - you can rent tools and stand for £4 per hour, and a qualified mechanic can help you if you're not sure what you're doing.

The video posted previously is good - basically you want to follow that. It is an easier job if you remove the freewheel to carry out the job, but not necessary. Basically you're only removing the freewheel to get it out of the way and give you improved access to the hub/locknuts.
First you need to clean the axle parts up with a rag, and the inside of both sides of the hub where the ball bearings run around - you should be able to see the curved tracks. The one on the drive side will be a bit harder to get to as you have to reach through the hole in the centre of the freewheel if you don't remove it. You want to get rid of all the dirty grease, and check that all ball bearings are out and not left anywhere inside the hub.

Once clean, it would be good to post photos of the 2 axle parts with bits on so that we can see if the various bits aren't damaged beyond short term use. Unless they're really unusable I'd fix it up using those bits with a new axle and run it like that till you get your new bike.

Minimum tools you will need are a 15mm cone spanner and a 17mm normal spanner or an adjustable. You can also get a freewheel removal tool to make the repair easier - this is definitely the right type and will fit - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FREEWHEEL-BLO ... 58be665686

You'll need some grease,
a pack of 1/4" ball bearings - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Weldtite-Cycl ... 4ab298a028 (these aren't great but your hub is probably not in best condition anyway, they are cheap and will be good enough)

and a hollow rear axle for 135mm spaced frame - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/28160102 ... 108&ff19=0

Basically you want to take all of the bits off the broken axle and reassemble them on the new axle in the same orientation and order. Some axles have different threads so you just have to find out once you've got it if the bits on your broken axle will screw on ok to the new one. I think that you'd have a job getting the relevant information on whether a new axle has the right thread, so I'd just buy and see, it's pretty cheap anyway. The new axle has parts on it already, but they may not be compatible with your hub, so it's best to try and re use the existing ones that came out of your hub.

If you don't remove the freewheel you will have to put all of the bits on the drive side of the axle together first and lock them up against each other. This is because once you have the axle in place in the hub the freewheel will cover most of the parts on that side of the axle so you won't be able to get to them to lock them up. In the video the guy does it this way anyway, just with the freewheel off and out of the way. Make sure that the stubby amount of axle showing at the end is the same amount as when you took the nuts of the broken axle, as in the video. When you put it back together you'll want 9 ball bearings in each side - there might be room for a 10th but that causes binding and is too many.

If you have the time, give it a go, it'll be cheaper than buying a new back wheel and swapping the tyre/rim tape/freewheel over.
milkonesugar
Posts: 13
Joined: 11 Jan 2015, 6:20pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by milkonesugar »

Hello John, don't worry about asking questions, everyone has to start somewhere.

It's entirely up to you which way you decide to go with this. If you buy the freewheel remover/bearings/axle from the e-bay links posted above, (not sure if there are any postage costs), it all comes in at under a tenner.

A new wheel? £35:00 ish, 7 speed freewheel.. £15 - £25, chain £8:00; could be talking £60 or £70:00, prices vary, (quality too!), you can shop around for bargains.

If you do it yourself you get to learn how to service the hub and a bit of other useful knowledge. If you replace the old with new presumably the bike, (back wheel at least), is good for at least another few years of commuting.

The Trek FX bikes are pretty good I hear, and if you've been riding it this long even though it's a little too big for you, you could continue to use it for commuting and keep the new bike when you get it for best. :D

I wouldn't entertain taking the freewheel apart, if you decide to re-use it just give it a good clean.

And then, once you've serviced the rear hub, you can do the front hub, the headset, bottom bracket, etc etc... :D
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by Brucey »

John_S wrote: ....I've had it a cycle mechanic replaced the cassette & chain plus I've replaced cables and brake pads but everything else on the bike is original and has been serviced. Therefore the hubs have never been serviced and items such as the rims have never been replaced. It had quite a hard life before I got the bike and now I do roughly 4,000 to 5,000 miles a year in all weathers on my commute......


The chances are that the rim is now worn and may be in imminent need of replacement. After all it is about 9 years old now and has done a lot of miles, I'd imagine. So I would check that carefully before spending any time and effort on that wheel.

As noted before, you don't have a cassette, you have a freewheel. Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but if you call it a cassette when it is really a freewheel then (sight unseen) you will be given bad advice and sold the wrong part, tools etc, over and over again....

As noted by others you need a splined shimano pattern freewheel remover. But I wouldn't bother even getting one if you are going to replace the wheel soon anyway. You can rebuild the hub with a new axle (without removing the freewheel) and it will almost certainly see the rim out, and when that is done I'd get a new wheel that DOES have a cassette/freehub instead of a screw-on freewheel. You don't need a freewheel remover to do any of that.

A proper cassette hub is a much stronger arrangement; broken axles are almost unheard of with these whereas they are commonplace with screw-on freewheels.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John_S
Posts: 385
Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Advice sought for rear wheel &/or hub issue

Post by John_S »

Hi recordacefromnew, gregoryoftours, milkonesugar and Brucey,

Thanks for the extra posts above as they're all really helpful.

Further to the last message from Brucey I'm really glad that you've mentioned the cassette / freewheel element because it needed to be said to me again because I wasn’t getting it. My apologies because being a completed novice to trying my hand at maintenance and trying to get used to all of the components and terms used I’ve now realised that I had completely the wrong end of the stick with respect to this but I was being very dim and it's taken a while for this point to sink in.

Before I started this thread when I’d had the problem and I started looking at how to tackle problems with the hub I think that just by chance all of the images that I was looking at featured a freehub and cassette. Therefore I wrongly assumed that they were all like this and having not taken the parts off my bike I stupidly didn’t realise that there were different types. Following Brucey mentioning this I’ve now had a D’Oh / eureka moment and I now get what you’ve all been telling me all along. I’m sorry for being slow on the uptake!

Following the messages yesterday I then looked at the Sheldon Brown website, link below, and now that I’ve seen the parts plus can relate it back to the YouTube video link that was posted previously I now understand what I have.

http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html

Now that I’m starting to get a better understanding of what I’m working with I now need to decide what to do next.

Thanks to all for all of the links to tools and parts above! I was tempted to order them all straight away. However I’ve thought first of all that I should try to take a closer look inspecting the rim for signs of wear. I did quickly look at the rim to see if there was any sort of wear indicator on the Matrix 750 rims but I couldn’t see anything and so either there wasn’t a wear indicator or potentially more worrying the wear indicator was worn off a long time ago, if for example it was a line around the rim. I don’t have any tools to assess the rim wear but I’m going to read up when I can and do the best that I can to check it. If the rim seems fine then I’ll go ahead and order all of the parts above and give it a go myself.

Thanks to gregoryoftours for mentioning that there is a bike kitchen that I could go to and that sounds like a great idea and a good way to learn. Unfortunately I’m a long way away out in the sticks in Norfolk however thanks for the offer! If the rim does look ok then I think that I’m happy to give this a go based on watching the previous YouTube video.

If the rim is worn out then I’m tempted to be a bit extravagant and use this as an excuse to treat myself to something that I’ve been wanting for a while. I know that the idea of dynamo lights are a bit like marmite and lots of people have perfectly good arguments both for and against. However given the winter commuting that I do I’d like to try dynamo lights just so as I don’t have the constant task of charging batteries & lights.

Now only because I know that dynamo lights seem to be more popular / readily available in Germany than over here I started my search on the Rose Bikes website and they had this:-

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shimano-dh-3n31deore-fh-t610-with-xtreme-sari-t-19-r-28700-c-atb-wheel-set/aid:716124

If the link doesn’t work it’s the following for £112 plus postage.

Consists of front and rear wheel:
Rims: Xtreme Sari T-19 R, 36 holes
Hubs:
FW: Shimano DH-3N31 hub dynamo, 36 holes
RW: Shimano Deore FH-T610 black, 36 holes, compatible with 7-/8-/9-/10-speed Shimano HG
Hub width: FW: 100 mm/ RW: 135 mm
Spokes: DT Champion 2 mm
Nipples: DT Pro lock
Tyres: Vittoria Randonneur Reflex, 700 x 35 C (these would be helpful because my current tyres are worn out and need replacing)
Including: quick-releases, inner tubes and rim tapes

If I do go down this route in addition to the obvious dynamo lights I’m guessing that this might unfortunately be a slippery slope of spending money because presumably I’d also need extra parts/components such as the following?

* Axle (the website doesn’t say if you need to buy an axle separately but I was kind of hoping that the hubs would come with the axle’s included;
* Shimano cassette to go on the freehub. The existing bike has the mixture of Shimano & Bontrager (plus some unbranded) parts/components and is 7 speed so I’d buy a 7 speed cassette that would hopefully would work with the current shifters. Given my previous confusion between knowing what a freewheel versus a freehub & cassette I’m hoping that I’m not now looking at the wrong thing again;
* a new chain.

Now I’d be much happier going with the far cheaper option of getting the repairs done if I can but if that’s not an option due to a worn out rim I’ll consider the above if I can scrape together enough money. However now that I’ve listed the above not to mention any additional parts/components that I’ve missed off the list due to not knowing they’d also need to be replaced, I realise that this is a bit of a financial slippery slope because the cost seems to be mounting up.

If the rim/wheel replacement is necessary I’d also search around to see if there’s a better way of getting all of the parts from either another website or my LBS but I just started with the Rose website as a starting point to get some idea of what the cost might be.

Thanks again,

John
Post Reply