Tools for drifting out bearings

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recordacefromnew
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by recordacefromnew »

Mick F wrote:
recordacefromnew wrote:Cartridges bearings are not specific to low end or high end hubs/wheels in my view. For example afaik all current Mavic wheels have cartridge bearings.
I think that is a matter of opinion.

Maybe some better quality wheels have cartridge bearings, but those wheels aren't expected to live for long. Once the rims are worn, that's it. Pay more for your wheels, and you'll get cup and cone.

With better hubs, you have cup and cone bearings that can be maintained easily and repaired easily. These tend to be on the better wheel-sets or on good handbuilt wheels.


It is untrue that cup and cone bearings are necessarily let alone easily repairable. I am unaware of any current Shimano cup and cone hub, irrespective of price, that can be properly repaired when the cup is pitted, unless it happens to be the one inside the freehub which is replaceable with the freehub. On the other hand, a cartridge bearing is always entirely replaceable just like other consummables. Don't get me wrong, I think cup and cone hubs are fine, and it is true that the typical Campag or Shimano cup and cone hub is more generic so hub replacement choice is wide, but that is not to say that cup and cone are necessarily "better" compared to cartridge bearings.

Talking about high end / best hubs, afaik no King or Royce has cup and cone bearings. Wheelsmith, e.g., consider King the best hubs for handbuilt wheels.
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Mick F
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Mick F »

Yep.
Don't disagree.

Chris King hubs have normal cartridge bearings (he doesn't make them), but the sealing arrangements are wonderful and a thing to behold. When I win the lottery, I'll be buying a pair of them, but it's a pity he doesn't do them with 36h.

Compare those to the Campag's cartridge hubs. Just basic SKS bearings and the only seal is the neoprene one on the bearing itself.

Cup and cone hubs have traditionally had replaceable parts. My 2006 Campag Chorus hubs have all the bits readily available from any Campag stockist and every bit is easily taken out and replaced with basic hand tools.

I cannot comment on Mr S stuff as I have no experience of his offerings.
Mick F. Cornwall
Brucey
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Brucey »

the cheapest tool for extracting the bearings described by the OP is simply a 6" nail, used inverted, i.e. tap the point with a hammer. The head of the nail will usually reach around onto the back of the bearing even if the hub centre bore is rather small. You can use a screwdriver as a wedge to stop the nail head moving sideways if necessary.

To make the bearings come out more easily, warm the hubs up. If they have no plastic parts, just tip a kettle full of boiling water over them immediately before drifting the bearings out.

Good luck!

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Mick F »

Yep. :D
Nail is a good idea, though I've always used a flat blade screwdriver as I've never had a 6" nail to hand.
Same screwdriver is used for headset race removal.
Mick F. Cornwall
Keezx
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Keezx »

dottigirl wrote:I've been looking at the most troublesome bearing on the Fulcrum 5.5s, and there's hardly any angle or 'ledge' at all to sit a screwdriver, hook, drift or key onto. In fact, the inside of the hub is nearly as narrow as the bearing - I've tried an exploratory screwdriver, and it just won't stay in place as I hammer..


The part between the bearings is a spacer and can be pushed aside so there is plenty room to place your screwdriver or whatever. Push in with a socket which fits the outer ring.
You don't need any specific or expensive tool.
merseymouth
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by merseymouth »

Hi there, If the axle comes out why not pull the bearings out? Use a Rawlbolt to make a puller, slide hammer style! Not difficult to create. The slide hammer I use is simply a weight from a set of scales with a hole drilled through it. TTFN MM
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Mick F
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Mick F »

They're not in tight, they aren't an interference fit, just a good firm fit.
You don't need slide hammers or special tools, just a small hammer and a drift. Tap, tap, tap, and they come out easily.

Brucey's point about boiling water is a good one. I'll bet they almost fall out if you do that. I must try it.
Mick F. Cornwall
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willcee
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by willcee »

I refer to micks comment on sealed bearings only in low cost hubs... afaik Mavic have been using this set up for many years back as far as the old but good 501's.. this is a true story from a good friend whom i spoke with just today, at the time mid late 80's he was a head of dept teacher.. art.. and a very high mileage cyclist he rode daily ,winter and summer to his school approx 30 miles each way, raced and TT'd as well..he rode 501's, handbuilt wheels ,all mavic, one of our Ulster specialist cycle shops back in the day was Davy Kane's in Belfast, an ex pro, and the shop a mecca in those far off days for anything special..Jim had occasion to visit Kaner as he had an astronomical mileage on the wheels, got a spoke or two sorted and asked about the mavic bearings, likely 40k on them, Kaner reset the side play, checked the seals. touch of 3 in 1 oil and says to Jim they're good for another 40 k!!! so no way Mick... sealed bearings esp Mavic ones, I've only ever replaced one. the bearing quality of some of the other makes leaves something to be desired , however they're handy enough to change if you know what you're about and bearings aren't expensive, and if you pop the seals and put decent lube in before installing they will last a long time.. will
Brucey
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Brucey »

Mavic 501 hubs... one of those designs that divides opinion... On the plus side they can be adjusted. On the minus side the flanges can crack, the rear axles did break. But the most annoying thing about them was that the bearing adjuster often wouldn't stay put. But yeah, back in the day they were not a bad choice, there were plenty of worse hubs than that. They owed much to the Maxicar design in the way one bearing was a sliding fit on the axle thus allowing adjustment to be possible.

More recent Mavic designs have used commercial quality bearings and seals, usually using shouldered axles etc. In this respect they are made very similarly to lots of other sealed bearing hubs.

BTW you would be amazed at how many sealed bearings expire because a small amount of water has entered the bearings and corrodes them. The tiniest amount of corrosion can cause the bearing to bind up like it is never going to turn again; this is because the bearings often make something more like a line contact between the balls and the races, (rather than a point contact) . This makes it difficult for the balls to roll over any small amount of corrosion. Often if the assembly is flushed with oil and simply used for a few weeks the bearings can become completely free again. If you are lucky the bearings will then last a long time further without developing excessive free play.

In the absences of corrosion, with controlled installation/service loads and with good lubrication etc I'd expect most cartridge bearings to be capable of lasting tens of thousands of miles. But the bearings themselves come lubricated with a tiny amount of grease that is meant for 10000 rpm, not 400rpm, the grease contains no corrosion inhibitors, the seals are often rather poor, and the assembly is often poorly tolerance so that the loads on the bearings are not well controlled.

So most cartridge bearings do not so much 'die of natural causes' as are murdered...

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Mick F »

Yep.
Agree.

My Campag Mirage hubs went rumbly and rough within a 1,000miles. I've had them out and greased them properly, but it's only a sticking plaster approach. They're my spare wheels, so I won't bother doing anything with them.

SKS bearings is all they are, and although their quality isn't in doubt, it's that they only have thin neoprene seals and don't keep the weather out in any useful way. If I had those as my usual hubs, I'd drill the shell, and be injecting lube regularly. (Having fitted new bearings first)

I don't have to do that with my cup and cone Chorus hubs. Although the seals aren't perfect, they are so easy to strip and clean, I can do it every 1,000miles and be content that they will last and last and last.
Mick F. Cornwall
dottigirl
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by dottigirl »

Update: I managed to borrow a bearing puller from a clubmate.

First, while I was at his place we set to on the Easton EA50 SL freehub.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102104766 ... 995860846/

Using the puller, it took two of us to get the bearings out. The inner bearing was seized so solidly, the inner ring didn't move at all. However, it should clean up and if the bearings aren't too scarred, I'm tempted to try regreasing/reinstalling as they're not that old.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102104766 ... 399430364/


Moving on to the Fulcrum 5.5 freehub, I thought I could just pull out the DS bearing. Wrong - the puller was too wide to get inside the DS bearing.
So, I took the NDS bearing out (very, very tight - took ages by myself), fed through a 5.5mm socket (with shoulders, and used part of the puller as a punch to force it out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102104766 ... 399428954/

It came out with two taps. Success...I thought.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102104766 ... 021847955/

I fitted an 11mm hex and tried to unscrew it. No joy. I hit the hex with a hammer, sprayed GT85 around, tried an old seatpost. It won't shift, at all.

Interestingly, the NDS also fits a 12mm hex, but this won't unscrew either.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102104766 ... 020400252/

Tomorrow, I'm off to a local workshop, hoping to use one of their vises.
Last edited by dottigirl on 3 Apr 2015, 7:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
dottigirl
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by dottigirl »

Keezx wrote:The part between the bearings is a spacer and can be pushed aside so there is plenty room to place your screwdriver or whatever. Push in with a socket which fits the outer ring.
You don't need any specific or expensive tool.


Not so for these wheels/hubs. Nothing would move at all.

merseymouth wrote:Hi there, If the axle comes out why not pull the bearings out? Use a Rawlbolt to make a puller, slide hammer style! Not difficult to create. The slide hammer I use is simply a weight from a set of scales with a hole drilled through it. TTFN MM


It wasn't possible to get a non-expanding puller in behind the bearing, as the bearing on the other side was still in.

Mick F wrote:They're not in tight, they aren't an interference fit, just a good firm fit.
You don't need slide hammers or special tools, just a small hammer and a drift. Tap, tap, tap, and they come out easily.

Brucey's point about boiling water is a good one. I'll bet they almost fall out if you do that. I must try it.


The lack of a decent purchase for the drift was the biggest problem.

I'll definitely be freezing the bearings and heating the hubs to re-install.

Thanks all.
Brucey
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Brucey »

dottigirl wrote:
I fitted an 11mm hex and tried to unscrew it. No joy. I hit the hex with a hammer, sprayed GT85 around, tried an old seatpost. It won't shift, at all.

Interestingly, the NDS also fits a 12mm hex, but this won't unscrew either.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/102104766 ... 020400252/

Tomorrow, I'm off to a local workshop, hoping to use one of their vises.


IIRC you need to work from the NDS on this style of hub. It could well be that the thing unscrews on a LH thread on the NDS.

Where there is a hex key fitting both sides, the usual arrangement is that the DS fitting is just to allow the freehub to be fitted/removed with a reasonable amount of torque even when the wheel isn't built yet. Trying to unscrew the freehub body on the DS is never going to work if it is splined onto the hubshell; you need to unscrew the fastener (which can be like a nut or like a bolt, I've seen both sorts) on the NDS.

BTW I do not believe that there are any bicycle hub bearings that you can use a puller on which are impossible to shift using a punch; it just needs to be the right shape punch! On some hubs you can get purchase by introducing a 'D' shaped key or a bayonet fitting behind the bearing, on others you just use a punch that is the shape of an inverted nail (or similar) as I described earlier.

If you are definitely going to replace the bearings anyway, or they have collapsed, you can always shift them using welding. A few spots of MIG weld onto the outer race, (securing a nut or washer of some kind) and then the bearing can be drifted out very easily; the welds shrink and this causes the fit to loosen.

BTW when rebuilding hubs of this sort it is as well to note that the inner seals are doing nothing of any use. You can add a reasonable quantity of semi-fluid grease or oil inside the hub and this will keep the bearings well lubricated for extended periods.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dottigirl
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by dottigirl »

Thanks Brucey, you were right.

Today, I popped to Greenford. On advice, I had a go at the NDS hex in the vise...and promptly broke my not-cheap hex. Used one of their Park Tools, and with ominous noises (everyone in the room looked around, and there were a few gasps), it came loose.

Yay! :)

Or not...the freehub is borked. :cry: I was hoping the excess movement was a bearing in the hub, but it's internal and that 11mm still won't shift. I'm going to give up on that for now, unless I can find a cheap replacement hub.

No pics this time, I've done a video instead. Don't watch it, it'll probably be the most boring five minutes of your life... :oops:

https://youtu.be/xMUXw5GSnjI

In better news, the Eastons are in pieces and just need a six new bearings and patience to re-fit everything.
Brucey
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Re: Tools for drifting out bearings

Post by Brucey »

see how much a new freehub body is for this hub first, and if you can get one at all.

I suspect that the 11mm hex on the RHS is not for turning, it is for holding when the wheel isn't built. Once the LHS fixing is undone, the freehub body should just knock out of the hubshell, as it should be on a spline.

If you want the freehub rebuilt I can do it. If the bearings are a little worn, but the bearing surfaces are not rough and corroded, I would normally be able to sort it out for £17 posted in the UK. If the bearing surfaces are obviously rough, I can still sort it out but the costs are usually higher. You can send me the wheel if you like but the postage costs are a fair bit more, so just the freehub body is easiest.

cheers
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