Alfine 8 query

[mickp]

I have just set up an alfine 8 hub geared wheel on my bike, I followed the instructions and watched some youtube clips and set it up so that with the selector in position 4 the two yellow marks line up nicely and then peddled it round the block to test it. As soon as I changed gear I noticed that something was odd, when I move the selector towards I which I would have thought would give a lower gear the hub changed up and when I move the selector towards 8 it changes to a lower gear. So do the Japanese count opposite to everyone else, down instead of up or is the gear selector wired up wrongly, if the latter can I easily fix it myself or does the whole thing have to go back to the Amazon store from which it came? The hub works OK in the gear marked as 4 but not too good in some of the others, I'm too scared to try all of them for fear of breaking something inside the hub if it's wrong.

Mike

[rualexander]

How old is the hub and the shifter?
I think the new version of the Alfine 8 which was introduced a few months ago works in the opposite direction to the old version.

[Brucey]

it sounds to me as if you have a mismatched combination of parts there; possibly the latest version of the hub and an older Alfine shifter.

The older alfine hubs (S500 etc) and shifters worked such that when you pulled cable using the shifter you would get a higher gear, and when the cable was slack you got first gear. I think the very latest version of the A8 hub works with reversed cable pull.

In theory you can make the system work I think ( because there is only one odd (longer) cable pull in the shifter and it is between 4 and 5, so should be OK either way round if you see what I mean) but you may need to set the hub up differently and the gear indication will be wrong anyway.

If you bought it as a complete system then it is not the correct mix of parts, so send it back or get the right shifter to match the hub.

If you get the service instructions for the hub and shifter from the shimano website it will say which is compatible with which. You will need the exact model number for the parts you have in order to find the correct SI document.

cheers

[mickp]

Hi guys, thanks for the replys. The hub is brand spanking new. Brucey, if I disconnect the cable I will either get a hard to turn high gear or a easy to turn low gear, is that right? The newer hub will be in a hard to turn high gear and an older hub will be easy to turn low gear?
Thanks


Mike

[Brucey]

yep, I think that is correct.

Also I think that the cable pulls the cassette joint pulley ACW in an old hub and CW in a new hub.

cheers

[garibeet]

I have three A8 hubs, of varying vintage, they all work the same re the shifters. Thumbs goes up/higher, trigger(finger) goes down/lower. I would suggest doing a couple of hundred kilometres before finally deciding to return as in my experience they take a while to bed in.
A couple of things to be aware of; non of mine like the cold much -2/3 or below, makes them skip in some gears a little, and they can fail to engage a gear on occasion. This is mainly as I live in Scotland and store the bikes in a brick shed, consequently it gets really cold and the hubs get quite cold. The rest of the year I have no issues at all.
It can be tempting to try to tweet the hub once you have lined the yellow marks up, a starting point if you like. I have found that there is no advantage to doing this, if you are careful during set up all works fine. Again, give them some time to bed in.
Re the freezing temps I am currently looking for a replacement grease/oil as it is on my fat bike which is used for touring on the snowpack, so it also gets to stay out overnight in the open when camping/bivvi-ing/bothying

[mickp]

Thanks garibeet, that's what mine does, thumb up, finger down, the problem is that the display goes towards 1 as I change up not 8.If I start in 8 and shift 3 times I'm in 5 but the display reads 4. When I set it up I just put the shifter into the 4 position and moved the locking nut on the shifter cable till it was in the gear where the two yellow marks lined up (4). As a result the entire shifting sequence is one gear out and will only shift seven gears. None of the gears except 4 feel right and I dare not apply any force to them so in effect I have an expensive and needlessly heavy single speed. Anyway I have contacted the seller and will ask them to send another shifter or hub if they prefer.

Mike

[rofan]

I suppose you have the A8 SG-S7000-8
This is a top normal shifting model like the A11.
The old shifters of the SG S501/500 N8 don°t work correctly. Better to say the indicator. The cable pull seems to work with nearly the same amounts according to the hub`s Type. For example 5-4 (S7000) and 4-5 (S501) about 6,1mm
I just measured the different cable pulls, but did not try to use the "wrong" shifter.

Also the Cassette joint must be different CJ-S7000
Shifter SL-S7000

But if the "Inner Cable Fixing Bolt Unit" fits, it is a bit surprising. They differ at the the two types of shifters

[Brucey]

the cable pulls are not equal for this hub and if you attempt to use an equal pull shifter it will wreck the hub. There are six (nominally) short cable pulls and one long cable pull. The long cable pull between 4 and 5 is something like 6.5mm and the other shifts use a cable pull of about 5.0mm each.

Having heard what the OP says I think you have an 'old' hub and a 'new' shifter. I think you can make it work OK but you need to set the index mark when the shifter reads '5' rather than the usual '4'; this way you should get all eight gears OK.

if you can read the exact model numbers off the shifter and hub this will help to confirm what you really have.

cheers

[rofan]

the cable pulls are not equal for this hub and if you attempt to use an equal pull shifter it will wreck the hub. There are six (nominally) short cable pulls and one long cable pull. The long cable pull between 4 and 5 is something like 6.5mm and the other shifts use a cable pull of about 5.0mm each.

of course they are not equal,, but as the S501 and the S7000 have the same parts(very few necessary exceptions of course)
the cable pulls are similar/equal according to the gears
4-5 and 5-4
1-2 2-1
7-8 8-7

Did you measure the cable pulls for both, the new and the old type of shifter?
Tell us your results

I did several runs and this is an example to get an idea

[Brucey]

What I was trying to say (and probably didn't manage very well) was that I would expect the new A8 shifter to drive the old hub and vice-versa, but that using a shifter timed on the wrong gear or a shifter with even cable pulls of 5.3mm (or so) instead would not be a good idea ( if it were then you could perhaps use an 8s SRAM X-series derailleur shifter or something.)

I've not had a chance to accurately measure the cable pull for the new shifter (so ta for that!) but since the internal parts are near identical I'd expect the same shift pattern to be preserved, with the long pull between 4-5 in both cases. Your measurements tally with mine pretty well except that the 4-5 cable pull I measured as nominally ~6.5mm. The apparent long cable pull between 1-2 on the 'old' A8/N8 shifters is just to make sure that the cable goes completely slack when the spring tension is weakest; it doesn't actually do anything inside the hub AFAICT. I note with interest that they appear to have ditched that idea on the 7-8 shift with the new hub/shifter.

BTW the reason for the long cable pull on the 4-5 shift is that this shift works an axial clutch on the two-speed reduction gear. Several shimano IGHs use the same approach ( eg the 5-6 shift in an N7 hub which also uses a long cable pull) and it is a common source of trouble in these hubs. Typically the axial clutch shift

a) isn't always perfectly synchronised with the (separate) sun-locking shifts. This often causes slippage in gear 5 on N8 hubs, because the axial clutch isn't really fully home yet. If you try and 'correct this' by using a different cable adjustment, you start to lose fourth gear etc instead. It is a real ball-ache to sort out; most folk just ditch the internal (or at least the axle) for a new one. Also,

b) the ramps that work the axial clutch are very steep; in N7 hubs the shift actually needs a 'run-up' to the ramps in one direction, else the shift control will often stall. [In a straw poll of new/used N7 hubs, I found there was only one from about 7 of them that wouldn't stall if you turned the shift control slowly by hand, yet only one was bad enough that it caused any real trouble in service.] IMHO these hubs could benefit from less steep ramp angles and an even longer cable pull on that shift perhaps. As it is, the chances of the hub working OK with a 5mm cable pull (instead of a ~6.5mm one) on that shift are rather small.

cheers

[mickp]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the input. Over the last 12 hours I've learned more about alfine hubs than I thought there was to know. Here's the situation as it stands to date. I bought a wheelset from Taylor wheels via Amazon. The goods arrived promptly and in good condition as advertised, the package also included the shifter mechanism which was nice.
I have received an email from Susi Herrman at Taylor Wheels asking for the serial numbers on both the hub and shifter and I have been able to decipher the following runes.
Hub SG-S501
SHIFTER SL-S700-8
Those of you learned in alfine lore will no doubt spot the problem, these two bits of kit are not compatible. I'm waiting for a response from Taylor Wheels and when everything is resolved I will let you know how it turned out and whether I can recommend the Company.


Mike

[rofan]

was the SL-S7000 complete with inner cable and inner bolt nut?

which cassette joint did you use?

This part makes it really strange and interesting

CJ-8S40: the inner bolt nut from the SL-S7000 does not fit , nor the distance of the inner bolt nut from the outer casting`s end
CJ-8S20


(CJ-S7000 : with a SL-S7000 you cannot shift a S501
EDIT: Does not fit at all on a S501)

[Brucey]

I don't see why you are puzzled, Rofan;

'Bottom normal' A8/N8 use ACW pull CJs and
'Top Normal' A8/A11s use the CW pull CJ

You can't fit a CW pull CJ to an older A8/N8 hub, and you can't fit an ACW CJ to a newer 'top normal' hub. If by chance they physically fit onto the hub they won't do any good because they pull in the wrong direction.

The (CW pull) CJ-S7000 model (for the new A8 hub) is also used on the 11s hub so it has to be able to accommodate a much longer cable pull, and can be fitted with a rubber bellows etc. Both these things make the cable stickout length to the pinch bolt different (longer).

The CJ-8S40 is identical in application to the CJ-8S20 model except it uses a rubber bellows, so it is longer and has to have a longer cable stickout to match. You can see the difference here;



Note that the only reason for the cable stickout to be specified is so that the barrel adjuster will always be able to bring the index set point gear within range without further cable adjustment. It is almost as easy to do this by trial and error, so that is what a lot of people do instead.

You should use a different pinch bolt each for CW CJ's and ACW CJs because the relative angles between the two flats on the spacer and the cable drilling are different; IIRC the relevant parts are pretty much exact mirror images of one another;

CW pull pinch bolt (A11/new A8) #Y6TV98070


ACW pull pinch bolt (N8/N7/old A8) #74Y9803


If you use the wrong one then it will simply pop out of the slot under tension, or will have to be installed back to front (which creates a bunch of knock-on problems IIRC). In recent times when I've bought shifters and/or cassette joints often neither of them comes with a pinch bolt and it has to be bought separately.

cheers

[Brucey]

BTW has anyone tried to use the Sturmey Archer HSL802 8s bolt?



It looks to be the same 'handedness' as the N8 bolt, so might work on Shimano ACW cassette joints?

It appears to be about 1/3 the cost of the shimano bolt, too.

cheers