New wheel build Q's

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brucelee
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Joined: 19 Feb 2009, 10:39am

New wheel build Q's

Post by brucelee »

Hi, the wear indicator on my rear rim is starting to show, time to build a new wheel and I have some questions :
Current wheel is FH-T780 shimano XT 135mm with DT swiss competition spokes and Mavic A719 .
I'm considering building a completely new wheel exactly the same. My question is : Are mavic rims drilled in such a way that a particular spoke hole is supposed to go to a particular side of the flange ? I don't mean which flange - that's obvious from inspection. It's just that some of the spokes look like their not on the nipples straight. I use sheldons' guide to building wheels each time.

I'm also considering another combination - Ultegra/sapim strong and race/open pro's. Ultegra is a 130mm hub. When I received my Long Haul trucker, the rear dropouts were space at 132.5mm(exactly) though the bike is spec'ed for 135mm. I've always had to spring them to get the rear wheel in and last time I checked (after 18 months use), they measures 133.5mm. So can I get away with a 130mm hub ?

Last question is nipple lube - has anyone tried candle wax ? Is this silly ? Should I just get a proprietary nipple lube and if so what are they like? Waxy/Greasy/Oily/plasticy? Wheels are built tight, I' not worried about loosening.
Cheers,
Bruce.
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531colin
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Location: North Yorkshire

Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by 531colin »

brucelee wrote:.......... It's just that some of the spokes look like their not on the nipples straight...............


Although I think I know what you mean, I'm not that familiar with Mavic, and a photo would be good anyway.

Any 135mm OLN wheel will be stronger than an exactly similar 130mm OLN wheel for no extra weight or money.....whats not to like?
If you currently get your wheels tight and they don't loosen off, what do you want different from a nipple lubricant?
(Ultegra/Open Pro sounds like a fairly light wheel....not sure I would go for Sapim Strong on the driveside, I would probably go for plain gauge.)
Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by Brucey »

If I were you I'd just build a new rim onto the old wheel; with practice you can do this in about an hour, just swapping the spokes over one at a time, as per the 'tape two rims together, one spoke at a time' technique. Some folk will say 'don't re-use spokes' but if the wheel was built right to start with they will be fine.

The frame may be gnot-rite spacing; designed to take 135 or 130mm. I'd respace 130mm hubs to 133mm in such a frame (just by adjusting the spacers on the axle) and this gives a noticeable stronger wheel.

The spokes have 'a destination' in the rim determined by the valve hole and the rim stagger. They often take a slight set where the nipples go through the rim; you need to deliberately set the spokes so that they don't flex at this point, else they may start to break. If you take a nipple off and the spoke doesn't have the exact right set to it, you probably haven't done enough. Often it is simply a case of giving crossed pairs of spokes the right kind of squeeze when they are 3/4 tight, and that will do the trick.

For nipple lube you can build with almost nothing (a squirt of wd40 on the pot of nipples), but then the nipples may seize in all weather use. Often you need to use a locking compound on the NDS nipples to stop them from unscrewing in hard use. A clever trick is thought to be to use linseed oil; this lubes during the build but then sets to give corrosion protection and some locking action.

cheers
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cycleruk
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Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by cycleruk »

Brucey wrote:The frame may be gnot-rite spacing; designed to take 135 or 130mm. I'd respace 130mm hubs to 133mm in such a frame (just by adjusting the spacers on the axle) and this gives a noticeable stronger wheel. cheers


Can you explain how this gives a stronger wheel ?
Surely if using the same hub then the spoke dish will always be the same no matter what the axle is spaced at. :?:

Only if you offset the hub then the dish can be made more equal.

This thread as actually got me thinking (dangerous I know). But are the flanges wider apart on MTB hubs compared with road hubs?
I know that MTB axle spacing is wider (135mm) than road axles. (130mm)
How much stronger is a wheel using the MTB hub?
You'll never know if you don't try it.
brucelee
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Joined: 19 Feb 2009, 10:39am

Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by brucelee »

I took a couple of photos and looked at them carefully and realised the nipple is pointing straight to the centre of the hub, it just looks more angled up close.
spoke close up.jpg
spoke close wide angle.jpg

Any 135mm OLN wheel will be stronger than an exactly similar 130mm OLN wheel for no extra weight or money.....whats not to like?

The fact that I might want to use it on a race type carbon fibre frame in the future and 135mm just wont fit.
If I were you I'd just build a new rim onto the old wheel
The spokes are actually the oldest part of the wheel having seen two rims and two hubs. Also, They have been chewed by the chain dropping off the largest sprocket. The only thing worth saving is the hub so I'd rather keep it as a spare whole wheel, since my experience is that you can still get allot of mileage out of them even after the wear indicator has appeared.
I'd respace 130mm hubs to 133mm in such a frame
The hub I'm considering for the alternative build is the Ultegra which has an aluminium axle and no protrusion of the axle into the dropouts. Rather, the end caps protrude into the drops. My concern is that adding spacers inside the end caps would reduce the amount aluminium thread available to bring force to bear on the cones to lock them. This may strip the thread. Also, I think they are 'locked' at one end (XT ones are) which means they could only be respaced at the other, requiring re-dishing, and 2mm of thread loss.
The frame may be gnot-rite spacing
Yea I'm a little concerned about this - I'd be happy if it was, it's just the LHT has always been spec'ed as 135mm rear dropouts as far as I am aware......

As far as thread lock is concerned I quite fancy that light blue plasticy stuff that seems common on things like brake bolts, I'm after an anti-sieze compound really - is this just thread lock compound and if so which one ?
Many thanks,
Bruce.
Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by Brucey »

I'd suggest that you use a 130mm hub that you can definitely respace to 133mm (by adding spacers on the left, which improves the dish and therefore makes a stronger wheel) or just get a 135mm hub to start with.

The flanges are similarly spaced in road and MTB hubs so if you respace a road hub to 135mm by adding left side spacers you have just made an MTB hub. The extra few mm of reduced dish makes a huge difference to the wheel strength.

Threadlocks/retaining compounds are specced by strength and material compatibility. Even the strongest is only about 27 N/mm^2 and this isn't enough to stop you from turning a nipple later on.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fastpedaller
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Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by fastpedaller »

Brucey wrote:I'd suggest that you use a 130mm hub that you can definitely respace to 133mm (by adding spacers on the left, which improves the dish and therefore makes a stronger wheel) or just get a 135mm hub to start with.

The flanges are similarly spaced in road and MTB hubs so if you respace a road hub to 135mm by adding left side spacers you have just made an MTB hub. The extra few mm of reduced dish makes a huge difference to the wheel strength.

cheers


I absolutely agree (Wheelbuilder for 30+ years). I just use 3in1 oil - never had any problems. One my Spa Tourer I used a NOS Shimano Acera 7 speed hub (130 OLN), and with a 'standard' 10mm plated washer on the NDS of the hub the spacing fits my frame perfectly - the dish on the wheel is minimal, giving a very little tension difference between DS and NDS resulting in a very strong wheel. With the extended use the spokes in your wheel have had (plus the chain damage) it is worth starting from new. Incidentally your description of the axle setup (re locknuts, or lack of them) was one reason why I didn't go for a brand new/high end Shimano hub.
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531colin
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Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by 531colin »

cycleruk wrote:........Can you explain how this gives a stronger wheel ?
Surely if using the same hub then the spoke dish will always be the same no matter what the axle is spaced at. :?:

Only if you offset the hub then the dish can be made more equal.

This thread as actually got me thinking (dangerous I know). But are the flanges wider apart on MTB hubs compared with road hubs?
I know that MTB axle spacing is wider (135mm) than road axles. (130mm)
How much stronger is a wheel using the MTB hub?


Shimano road and MTB hubs have the same flange spacing.
Adding spacers to the left side only (or moving spacers from right to left) offsets the hub in the frame, allowing reduced dish, more even spoke tension and lateral bracing, and a more durable wheel.
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531colin
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Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by 531colin »

Image

Here, the nipple is orientated exactly radially, rather than in line with the spoke. As Brucey says, you can put a little bend in the spoke. Sapim nipples allegedly are shaped to allow them to swivel in the rim (Polyax....?) whether this is real or marketing I'm not sure.

Instead of one Ultegra/Mavic wheel, to "fit" two different bikes, I think I would go for 2 different wheels with some less "aspirational" bits....maybe Deore/Tiagra/Exal.
brucelee
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Joined: 19 Feb 2009, 10:39am

Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by brucelee »

I understand the dishing improvement argument - thanks, good to know.

I'd suggest that you use a 130mm hub that you can definitely respace to 133mm (by adding spacers on the left, which improves the dish and therefore makes a stronger wheel) or just get a 135mm hub to start with.
The photo above shows the cap nut on my XT hub - I'm going to assume the ultegra hub is similar (though It's got the digital index thing which might make a difference - but I like the sound of it). From bottom to top there is the cone, a very thin washer then the cap nut starting at 1mm on the ruler. There is another black band which is an O-ring. The cap nut ends at 10mm. Assuming 3mm for material at the end of the cap nut this gives 6mm of engaged thread between the axle and cap nut. Putting a 3mm washer would cut the engaged thread in half. Given the material of the axle (aluminium), I'd be concerned that the thread on the end of the axle would strip when tightening to lock the cones.

The implication is that hubs of this design cannot be respaced.
I wonder if the axles are available as a spare part....

So original question remains, is it OK to put a 130mm hub in this frame ?

Many thanks, this thread has cleared up a few issues I was confused about.
Bruce.
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cap nut close up.jpg
Brucey
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Re: New wheel build Q's

Post by Brucey »

if you are in any doubt then you should buy hubs with conventional steel axles. They work very well.

cheers
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