SADDLE HEIGHT..please try the "bump test"

[barrym]

Well I'm clearly not the "experienced" cyclist that Colin is addressing, but I tend to do the heel thing to start, then raise until I feel I'm rocking side to side, then drop it back until I'm steady. Seems to work OK for the sort of cycling I do.

Cheers
Barry

[Mick F]

Sounds like a check next time out!
Good link, and great diagrams.

I checked yesterday.

Wow!
What a brilliant idea for checking saddle height. Bump Test is a good test, and a good confirmation of Heel on the Pedal technique.

I was spot on level BTW.

[bigjim]

I can never work it out. I find there are so many variables. I read about one famous TDF rider that was forever adjusting his saddle and was never happy with it. If he can't get it right what chance have I got? I now use my back to tell me. A few miles into a ride if the small of back starts to ache, I stop and adjust my saddle down a notch. If my back is happy and no other aches or pains then I assume it is correct.

[sreten]

I find advice about forward/back saddle position is readily accepted. Very many people who buy race bikes end up with too much weight on their hands. After a couple of hours riding their wrists and shoulders are getting sore, I can ride next to them and show that I only need one finger on the bars to support my weight, and they can do it too, if they slide back on the saddle. Also, KOPS is fairly readily accepted, possibly because it sounds like something more than a coincidence.
So really, I guess I'm looking for something like KOPS, but for saddle height.
I set my saddle height so that I can ride a good stretch of rocky track pedalling, "seated" but actually allowing the saddle to bounce about under me, so that's maybe a bit lower than just a "road" position..........and most people won't do it anyway.

Hi,

Heel on the pedal is one way of setting saddle hieght. Another is instep which
will get you to very near maximum saddle hieght, i.e. before hips start rocking,
and by all accounts near maximum is best, but try telling that to someone
who can't touch the ground from the saddle, some people won't have it.

IMO KOPS is a coincidence and not as important as saddle hieght or front to back.

IMO one should try setting the pedals level and lifting off the saddle a little and
then balancing with little force on the bars. If your bum moves when reseating
then IMO move the saddle towards the movement until it is minimal.*

This will affect KOPS, and to maintain a set KOPS you'd have to fiddle with
stem lengths after setting the seat hieght, and fore and aft for KOPS.

IMO after setting up on a bike, KOPS, or the lack of it, suggests whether
your stem is about right, or you really need a longer or shorter stem.

Front bar hieght is a real spanner in the works affecting all the above,
as there is certainly no ideal value for that, other than the lower it
is you are comfortable with (how fit you are) the faster you can go.

rgds, sreten.

* On my folder, trying to fix tingling hands, I ran out of saddle
adjustment so instead I had to lift the front bars to get a decent
balance point, i.e. make it a bit more "sit up and beg", as the
stem length is not adjustable, without serious modifications.

[Brucey]

...IMO KOPS is a coincidence and not as important as saddle hieght or front to back....

the best method I know is to;

a) set the saddle height
b) check for KOPS/set saddle fore and aft, readjust saddle height if necessary.
c) set handlebars
d) check 'balance'
e) make small adjustments as required in the same order.

step b) is best done by checking leg lengths (upper and lower) and adjusting accordingly. But it is never very far away from KOPS, so as a short cut to a 'starting position' using height then KOPS is fine, coincidence or otherwise.

By contrast 'checking for balance' before setting saddle position means that you leave yourself free to make a coarse change to the leg action depending on the initial weight distribution in the upper body. This is the wrong order of priorities and can easily lead to a slightly weird setup.

Note also that checking for balance using the method you suggest makes no allowance for the net torque on the body which comes as a result of the true pedalling action; your method would only be accurate if you always pushed down on both pedals at once, and IME, no-one does that.

The only true way to check for balance is to have the rider do it whilst pedalling normally; this also means that as a rider gets stronger, they can move the saddle a little forwards if required. This can yield a more aerodynamic position e.g. for racing, with no real loss of comfort.

cheers

[531colin]

Sounds like a check next time out!
Good link, and great diagrams.

I checked yesterday.

Wow!
What a brilliant idea for checking saddle height. Bump Test is a good test, and a good confirmation of Heel on the Pedal technique.

I was spot on level BTW.

Mick....
Can I ask you to be absolutely specific?
The guys with the diagrams http://www.bikesplit.com/bsa3.htm are saying your foot should be level when your knee is locked out.....was your foot level when pedalling, or with the knee locked out?

Heres this tired old picture you have seen a million times before....



.....but it shows my foot is level when there is still some bend in my knee, and its a pedalling shot, not a posed still.

[531colin]

Here is a contrast....and I have seen this lass ride all day, quicker than me, pointing her toes and dipping her hips to reach the pedal at the bottom.....this again is a pedalling shot, you can see even with the saddle as high as that she is keeping some bend in the knee, you can't pedal smoothly through the bottom with the knee locked out. When she finally came to me with aches and pains, she let me lower the saddle quite a lot, maybe 10 or 15mm.....but she wasn't interested in trying any lower than this, which I suppose isn't too bad......

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
In the correct position on the link you posted, it shows leg locked, foot parralel to ground.
But the foot to leg is extended beyond 90 degrees, and in dynamic view the leg would never lock like 531colin's pic.
But 531colin has a foot to lower leg of 90 or less
Also on another of 531colin's static pic it shows the leg and foot very similar.
I note that a 30 odd year old photo of Mick F that he has what I would regard as a "natural ankling" style, even though he is moving but legs are still.
531colin's KOPS pic does show what I would regard as a good style, begs the question if 531colin's foot to lower leg angle does not change between KOPS and full down pedal, then has he any "natural ankling at all"
Some pro's cycle like this, some practice heel down on chasing on a hill (few).
Do those who do not indicate any natural ankling have mucle attachments in different places / stiff or less flexibility / habitual style
At the top of my training course I did drop my heels even standing as I was running out of puff due to my layoff, which shortens the leg range and hence improves temporary strength loss and thus enables a higher cadence, practiced by Froomee.

So it appears to me that it all comes down to leg & foot flexibility.
Dropping heel unconsciously shortens leg and reduces the dynamic range similar to setting cleats mid sole.

[samsbike]

Sounds like a check next time out!
Good link, and great diagrams.

I checked yesterday.

Wow!
What a brilliant idea for checking saddle height. Bump Test is a good test, and a good confirmation of Heel on the Pedal technique.

I was spot on level BTW.

Mick....
Can I ask you to be absolutely specific?
The guys with the diagrams http://www.bikesplit.com/bsa3.htm are saying your foot should be level when your knee is locked out.....was your foot level when pedalling, or with the knee locked out?

Heres this tired old picture you have seen a million times before....



.....but it shows my foot is level when there is still some bend in my knee, and its a pedalling shot, not a posed still.

A bit OT but I love that picture and dont apologise for posting it!!

[sreten]

Note also that checking for balance using the method you suggest makes no allowance for the net torque on the body which comes as a result of the true pedalling action; your method would only be accurate if you always pushed down on both pedals at once, and IME, no-one does that.

The only true way to check for balance is to have the rider do it whilst pedalling normally; this also means that as a rider gets stronger, they can move the saddle a little forwards if required. This can yield a more aerodynamic position e.g. for racing, with no real loss of comfort.

cheers

Hi,

Note that I said its a check and the saddle should be moved towards the imbalance.

However what I said is basically balancing your body weight over the crank axis.

As you say, a biker pedalling off the seat, with no force on the bars, will be balanced
over a point forward of the crank axis, but if not pedalling hard, it will be near the
the crank axis, and that is not considering not pedalling hard sat on the saddle.

Whilst I'll agree its not right, I'll also argue is not far wrong, and argue
it gets better the worse the rider. I'll also argue that for racers sprint
finishes are clearly weight over the end of the pedals and negative
forces on the bars, and therefore saddle position is irrelevant.

rgds, sreten.

[Brucey]

I don't disagree with you entirely, far from it. But all you can do is set up for the 'steady state' , and this is an upthrust centred somewhere near the pedal on the downstroke, not the BB spindle.

cheers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Scond picture of the "Lass" looks good to me.
First is too high I agree.
Women do do that, in the last year I have seen two women (young20 or so)
One was dropping the heel at an angle equal to like your first lass photo
The other made your second photo look flat footed
But I have seen Pendleton with a toe dip that would make you cringe, and froomee heel dropper that would scare you, the first is probable training and the second on the tour / veulta on a turbo.
So I suggest that this is training, and not in competition, though track riding does tend towards toe dipping, when you see the oposite on the track it sticks out.

[Mick F]

Mick....
Can I ask you to be absolutely specific?
The guys with the diagrams http://www.bikesplit.com/bsa3.htm are saying your foot should be level when your knee is locked out.....was your foot level when pedalling, or with the knee locked out?

I freewheeled a few times and locked each knee out at a time, and studied my foot position. I must emphasise that the road was empty and smooth, so had time to look at my feet without having to worry about where I was going.

Although I didn't have the luxury of someone to photograph me or watch me, I was easily able to see that my feet were level. Normally, when pedaling or freewheeling, my knees are slightly bent of course and my feet point downwards a small amount.

I also studied my natural pedaling action, and find that my left foot points inward a bit whilst the right foot is parallel with the bike, and when I'm tired, I point my left foot downward more than my right. I said up thread that I have always had pain in my left knee and rarely lock it out when standing. Maybe when I'm tired, I like my left knee bent more than my right.

[531colin]

Thanks for the clarification, Mick. Foot level with knee locked out is too high for my saddle, I need foot level with a bit of bend in my knee.

[531colin]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that this has all got a bit complicated.
The best thing to come out of it so far, for me, is Brucey reminding me that I used to slide back on the saddle for a bit more power. I don't seem to do that any more, either I'm really old, or my saddle is higher than it was, or I "push and pull" on the cleats instead. I will have to go for a ride.......

This is how it looks to me at the moment.
Set the saddle so with your knee locked your heel is "down a bit" at the bottom, and mark the seatpost.
If you are "forcing a gear" and you get more power by sliding back a bit, its probably about right.
If you are off the back of the saddle and still pedalling, its too low.
If sliding back robs you of power, making you point your toes or dip your hips, you are too high.

A couple of notes....
When "forcing a gear" (low cadence/high force) you are looking for maximum power, which comes when the knee is nearest straight.
At a normal/high cadence, your body is looking for a smooth pedalling action through the bottom of the stroke....even if the saddle is much too high you will point your toes and dip your hips to keep that all-important bend in the knee at the bottom.