Uncomfortably numb (hands)

[Raph]

I never found out whether the OP had sore hands due to contact pressure or muscle tension. Maybe I should re-read the whole thread!

OP here.

I think that it is through pressure on my hands. Having Googled it states that numbness can be caused by pressure on the nerves going down the centre of the wrist. I think that it is through pressing down on the fleshy part of the palm or through a bent wrist. I am assuming that it is this pressure on the nerve that causes the numbness.

When I next go out I'll have to pay attention to my hand positioning as well as my balance/weight on the bars.

Really thinking back to when I used to use my road bike, on leisure rides I would mostly ride with my hands on the top of the levers. I think that I occasionally got some numbness but shifting my hands onto the tops of the bars, on the inside of the drops or elsewhere would rectify this. Probably why it wasn't a problem.

OK, so apologies for all that stuff about RSI and tension - totally irrelevant!

Seems like trying different bars might be the answer, once you've exhausted all the options of different grips, different handlebar heights and angles. Turning the grips round so the protruding flat bit is towards you would be a start - sorry if it's already been mentioned or you've already tried it. The nearest I've come to the same condition was the outer pad of the palm getting a squashed nerve (or felt like it), in the bit that now rests on the flat "shelf" bit of the ergon grips - if you have a nerve getting squashed in the middle of the palm then similarly a flat support on the outer part of the palm might relieve pressure on the middle part.

PS is the handlebar higher than your saddle, as in the pic you posted? If so I find it hard to imagine there's any undue weight on your hands.

Very last question - when your hands are on the bars, do they settle in a position where the back of the hand is approximately in line with the forearm? Or angled up, like a kid revving an imaginary motorbike, with wrist sagging downwards? I'm just wondering because nerves and tendons seem to be more vulnerable when going through sharp bends, and part of the effect of the ergon grips for me was that they stopped my wrists sagging by supporting the palm of my hand behind the bar (i.e. on my side of it). So there's a straighter line along the forearm to back of the hand.

I very much hope you get it sorted, and I'd be interested to know how.

[mattsccm]

Is it your elbows. Mine ache at times and sometimes at night I get tingly fingers. The doc reckons its something in my elbow joint and then washes his hands of it.
Also I have found that my fingers are much more likely to go numb when wearing padded mitts. Never did. I suspect its because they are close fitting. Taking them off mid numbness cures the issue.
Just a thought.

[Big.Wayne]

OP here

Hello The fat commuter and hello everyone else! . . . first post here!

I think you have been given some great advice so far and just wanted to add a little more info . . . I think the symptoms you are experiencing are likely caused by multiple factors:

- Incorrect front tire pressure
- Slightly incorrect bike fitting
- Old age (slight nerve damage to your hand that you may not have been aware of)
- Non ergo hard grips

So firstly, if your tire pressure is too high then you lose a form of "micro-suspension", all the slight vibrations (road chatter) will "buzz" through your wheel rims, along the spokes into the hub, up through the front fork/steering column into your handlebars/grips straight into your sore hand-nerves! . . . Do you know what PSI your tyres are? . . . could they be over inflated? . . or are they soft and squidgy? . . .

As some others have already stated the grips on your bike can make a difference to how the "load" is spread, if your grips are too narrow then the road-chatter will be hitting a smaller area of your palms which after a while will begin to aggravate the nerves in your hands. The ERGON grips that have been suggested are really good for flatbar, they nearly double the area where your palms make contact so all the vibration is spread out more, alongside a more ergonomic/natural grip it all helps with avoiding sore palms . . .

Old age? . . . sounds terrible doesn't it but the reality of it is the "machine" begins to fatigue after a goodly amount of miles . . . these symptoms are more acute in those that have quite physically demanding jobs who have exposed themselves too additional "wear & tear" . . . I don't suppose you work in the trade do you (builder/roofer) or perhaps work with your hands? . . . what I'm suggesting is that you may have "possibly" suffered some slight nerve damage to your hands in the past without realising it? . . . if an individual exposes their hands to enough vibration it can lead to numbness and eventually the hands turning white, to avoid this becoming too bad and damaging the nerves it is suggested by current health & safety recommendations to keep the hands warm & dry and too take regular breaks . . .

So it seems there is alot you can do to minimise the problems you are having, bike fitted properly so that your not leaning too heavily on your bars, making sure you don't have too high PSI in your tires (particularly your front tire) getting some nice ergo grips & gloves, making sure your hands are warm & dry and taking a few extra breaks on your longer rides! . . .

Hope you get it sorted, I had similar problem which spoiled my riding for a while but after paying close attention to the reasons above I found the problem went away!

[The fat commuter]

Hi all

Went for a test ride this morning. Not far, only about twelve miles. The numbness had started before the end of the ride - mainly down my thumb, palm and first few fingers so that indicates that it is nerve compression somewhere.

I've twisted the grips so that they are the right way around. Didn't make any difference - I realise that they may need a tweak though. Tried to see if I could do the one finger test but this meant me having to sit more upright as my hands had to move backwards. I do feel that if my handlebars were higher though that I'd be putting less pressure on my hands.

Regarding hand position, my hands are in line with my forearms on the up-down but they seem to be turned slightly inwards left to right.

I've just ordered some bar ends so hopefully this will give me more hand positions.

Regarding the last post on this thread. Front tyre pressure is quite high. I pump the tyres up to the maximum for the tyre (about 80 psi). Will let a bit out of the front.
Bike fit - did wonder about this. I do intend to get a new bike next year and will be on here beforehand to find out the best way to get a good fit. However, it will be towards the end of next year before I get the bike as I want to lose two or three stone first.
Age, no one's getting any younger and the aches and pains of age are becoming more apparent (I'm 47).
Ergo grips - hopefully the bar ends with grips will help.

Thanks all. I'll keep you up to date with how the bar ends will help with giving me more hand positions.

[531colin]

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35438

descriptions of the distribution of the nerves is in the above thread.
The split is like the Vulcan salute on Star Trek......little and ring fingers, its the ulnar nerve, and the problem is in your elbow or shoulder, I forget.
The Carpal nerve goes to the rest of the hand...as in Carpal tunnel syndrome, handlebar palsy, etc.,,,,weight on the heel of your hand.
more weight on your hands than you can comfortably support on one finger is certainly contributing to the issue....I still think you need your bum further back.

[DarkNewt]

Hi,

I had this so bad I did nerve damage to my right hand lost 25% of nerve function according to the nerve conduction test they did on me sending electrical impulses through the hand and measuring the difference between left and right. I did it on my Jogle, got knocked off my bike hurt my achilles and my wrist, they put my wrist in a metal brace and i cycled the rest with the brace which put a ton of pressure on the nerve...


Anyhow... to cut a long story short, this is what worked for me:

1. SET UP YOUR BIKE CORRECTLY TO REDUCE THE PRESSURE ON YOUR WRISTS/HANDS (sorry for shouting but i was dumb and wish someone had shouted at me)
2. Don't believe there is a one best solution for handlebars, I use multiposition bars (bb multibar) I am going to be changing these at some point for Koga Atalanta ones as I like the look of the straighter ends.
3. Tape is a matter of preference - what works for me is "phat tape" search for it - a lot of the issue on long distances comes down to transmitted vibration this really helps with it.
4. Change your hand position often, when your tired you start to lean more on your hands, this puts pressure on the nerve more and you go numb, let that happen too often/too long and hey presto you have nerve damage.
5. Be "be mindful" of your own body, see item 4.. it sounds silly to some but actually listen to your body, if it says this doesn't feel right listen to it stop and adjust, don't think ohh I will just ignore this numbness for a few more miles do something about it, if your on the flat take the opportunity to lift your hand off and wiggle your wrist.

all of the above advice should help reduce stress/pressure on the wrist which relieves nerve pressure and allows blood to flow.

Remember no one solution fits everyone sometimes one thing is not enough you have to look at it from several angles... one thing I can say throwing money at it with more expensive parts is the easiest but most likely the least helpful solution unless you know why your spending that money

I really hope things improve for you!

[531colin]

I'm a bit rusty on this, but I think the nerve damage from pressure on the heel of the hand can be recoverable, in some circumstances.
In the case of vibration white finger, its unfortunately permanent damage, caused by long term (occupational) battering of the hands.
With less damage (short term, maybe) there is a chance that the damaged nerve processes (axons) can regenerate, provided the tube they used to occupy (myelin sheath) is intact, and the nerve cell body itself survives........these are in the spinal cord in the case of motor nerves, and the spinal dorsal root ganglia in the case of sensory nerves. (I may have that the wrong way round) but hopefully fairly protected, anyway.

Dark Newt, your advice is spot on, I hope your hand recovers.
When you pedal hard, the upward reaction supports your torso, and takes weight off your hands. When you are tired and pedalling less hard, you don't get that torso support, and you must either hold yourself up using core strength, or sit back a bit.
I set my bikes up with the saddle a fair way back, so when I'm taking it easy (most of the time) there is little enough weight on my hands so I can use one finger to support myself. On the odd occasion I want to pedal hard, I pull on the bars....no problem.

[freeflow]

Prior to making the switch to drops about 5 years ago I was using this

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-mk2-co ... prod12228/

with ergon grips. I still have this setup on my 'go to the shops/bridle way riding' bike (a dawes supergalaxy).

Earlier this year I found I was suffering badly as I increased my Audax distances to 300k. One of the problems was that my little and ring finger were numb for several days after an audax. I'd had a bike fit done the year previously. I eventually had another bike fit by Tim Williams (See this weeks Cycling weekly) and resolved all of my issues with hot foot, saddle discomfort, numb hands and sore neck. My riding position was changed very significantly to a saddle that was as far back as it was possible to go, the bars as low as it was possible to go and a change of stem from 80mm to 130mm. It was a tough mental challenge to accept this new position but I found it worked very well such that I don't now have any specific aches or pains or numbness other than that you might attribute to adapting to 300k rides. I can now also ride on the drops for extended period which I was never able to do previously.

So it is worth investigating changes to your current riding position to determine how much it affects your comfort.

[niggle]

Regarding the last post on this thread. Front tyre pressure is quite high. I pump the tyres up to the maximum for the tyre (about 80 psi). Will let a bit out of the front.

Re tyre pressures prepare to be amazed by this article and chart: http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf for instance using it my touring bike's 35mm front tyre should be at 35psi- which is the pressure I now use and get a superb ride without losing performance.

[gregoryoftours]

You could give on one Mary bar a go. really cheap these days too:

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBOOMA/on- ... -handlebar

- in my experience they give a really comfortable swept back position that is really easy on the hands and wrists. I can lend you a set with a suitable stem if you like as (you normally need a sligthly longer stem due to bar clamp relative to hand position)- I live in sheffield and could swap them over for you to try for a bit. They are really good for going uphill, like using bar ends. Don't play well with ergo grips in my experience.

[The fat commuter]

... I can lend you a set with a suitable stem if you like as (you normally need a sligthly longer stem due to bar clamp relative to hand position)- I live in sheffield and could swap them over for you to try for a bit. ...

Wow, thank you very much for that kind offer. I'll bear it in mind but I'm hoping that other adjustments to my riding style may be helping. Did just under 25 miles this morning (out towards Ladybower and then back towards Ringinglow). Kept moving my hands around a bit and also shaking them out when on a flatter sections of the ride. This seemed to do the trick. Also, my bar ends and grips arrived during the week so will be fitting those.

Regarding the bar ends, that leads me onto a question. I've managed to get one of the current grips off using brute force. Tried to get the new one on but it's a bit of a struggle. Looked on YouTube and it states to use a non oil based lubricant to assist in the removal and refitting. It recommends deodorant, hairspray or alcohol as they will lubricate and then dry or evaporate. I have (or rather, the wife has) hairspray, deodorant and surgical spirit. Which of those would be the best to use?

Also, regarding moving my seat back to get a better balance, the seat is currently as far back as it will go. The only way I can see to move it further back is to buy a bent or offset seat tube. Having Googled though, these don't seem to come that cheap - depends on your definition of what is expensive but they seemed to be about £50.

[niggle]

... I can lend you a set with a suitable stem if you like as (you normally need a sligthly longer stem due to bar clamp relative to hand position)- I live in sheffield and could swap them over for you to try for a bit. ...

Wow, thank you very much for that kind offer. I'll bear it in mind but I'm hoping that other adjustments to my riding style may be helping. Did just under 25 miles this morning (out towards Ladybower and then back towards Ringinglow). Kept moving my hands around a bit and also shaking them out when on a flatter sections of the ride. This seemed to do the trick. Also, my bar ends and grips arrived during the week so will be fitting those.

Regarding the bar ends, that leads me onto a question. I've managed to get one of the current grips off using brute force. Tried to get the new one on but it's a bit of a struggle. Looked on YouTube and it states to use a non oil based lubricant to assist in the removal and refitting. It recommends deodorant, hairspray or alcohol as they will lubricate and then dry or evaporate. I have (or rather, the wife has) hairspray, deodorant and surgical spirit. Which of those would be the best to use?

Also, regarding moving my seat back to get a better balance, the seat is currently as far back as it will go. The only way I can see to move it further back is to buy a bent or offset seat tube. Having Googled though, these don't seem to come that cheap - depends on your definition of what is expensive but they seemed to be about £50.

Hairspray should add a bit of extra sticking power, I have always used rubber solution.

I do like the way Ergon grips are locked on with a bolt and clamp arrangement as this allows you to make minor angle adjustments until you get it just right.

[531colin]

.................

Regarding the bar ends, that leads me onto a question. I've managed to get one of the current grips off using brute force. Tried to get the new one on but it's a bit of a struggle. Looked on YouTube and it states to use a non oil based lubricant to assist in the removal and refitting. It recommends deodorant, hairspray or alcohol as they will lubricate and then dry or evaporate. I have (or rather, the wife has) hairspray, deodorant and surgical spirit. Which of those would be the best to use?

Also, regarding moving my seat back to get a better balance, the seat is currently as far back as it will go. The only way I can see to move it further back is to buy a bent or offset seat tube. Having Googled though, these don't seem to come that cheap - depends on your definition of what is expensive but they seemed to be about £50.

Long layback seatposts don't seem to exist at what I would call "reasonable" prices.,,,,cheapest currently I think is Velo Orange http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/vo-grand-cru-seat-post-long-setback.html. cheaper things like this http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s84p1602 give more layback than some posts, so a picture/link/etc of your current post might help. Or maybe a different saddle with longer rails?

Hot water is the least exciting thing to use on grips. Lie your bike down with the grip in a bucket of hot water (ideally, keeping the shifters dry). The heat softens the grip, then you can usually slide a thin screwdriver between grip and bar, and get the water in there, and off it comes. Hot water similarly helps to get them on, and they usually stay put once they dry out. If they are loose, you must stick them, obviously.

EDIT....just looked at your original post...
If your seatpost is like the one in the picture, you won't get much out of the Kalloy seatpost.

[The fat commuter]

Hot water is the least exciting thing to use on grips. Lie your bike down with the grip in a bucket of hot water (ideally, keeping the shifters dry). The heat softens the grip, then you can usually slide a thin screwdriver between grip and bar, and get the water in there, and off it comes. Hot water similarly helps to get them on, and they usually stay put once they dry out. If they are loose, you must stick them, obviously.

Used brute force to get the second one off. However, to put them back on, soaking the grips in boiling water first worked a treat. Many thanks, will see if they make any difference over the next week or two.

Cheers

[AndyB]

Another thought (which I don't think has been mentioned) is that it may well arise in your neck. I've found that I can get numb hands, but this seems to arise because I often hunch my shoulders. If I concentrate on keeping my shoulders relaxed (tucking my elbows in seems to have this effect), then I don't suffer the same problem.