10 speed Campag shifters

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Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Brucey »

rick99 wrote:The post 2010 rear derailleurs have the same parallelogram as the 11 speed mechs. I have referred to it as '11 speed parallelogram' . It is different to the old 10 speed geometry....


Campag did redesign the mechs when 11s was introduced but I don't think the shift ratio changed:

10s pitch is 4.15mm, 10s shifters pull 2.8mm/click, thus shift ratio is (nominally) 1.5
11s pitch is 3.85mm, 11s shifters pull 2.6mm/click, thus shift ratio is also (nominally) 1.5

I just checked the 2011 to 2014 spares pdfs and the parallelograms for the revised 10s mechs do look the same (as drawn) as the 11s mechs. Unfortunately this cannot be confirmed this way there because there are no part numbers listed for any 10s parallelograms that I can see.... :roll: They do look the same in the flesh, I agree.

Graeme's position is that the 10s mechs all have the same shift ratio (new 'redesigned' or old) and this is also borne out here;

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycles/Maintenance_and_Repair/Gear-changing_Dimensions

AFAICT Campag last changed shift ratio over 15 years ago.
Shimano do use a different shift ratio for road 11s from previous shimano systems.

cheers
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rick99
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

Thanks for that work, it's more than I've done. The 10 speed shifters pull as you say 2.8mm average but actually they pull 2.5mm of cable five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. I think something in this pattern is not quite right in the cross era combination.

It struck me through this though that if it were a spring strength issue then the different eras should be ok one way but not the other i.e. 2011 shifters with 2010 not fine but vice versa fine.. Campagnolo said that neither was possible.

I'm going to buy a modern veloce rear mech and stop annoying you . Apologies for any bad feeling. I have other issues with 2015/2014 11 speed which has also changed and i find it maddening/ridiculous. Not bad enough to go to shimano though.

Bye.
Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Brucey »

rick99 wrote:Thanks for that work, it's more than I've done. The 10 speed shifters pull as you say 2.8mm average but actually they pull 2.5mm of cable five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. I think something in this pattern is not quite right in the cross era combination.


you might be right; after all, the movements are not linear and may well vary with the details of the mech design. An average cable pull is just that, an average. I am pretty sure that some shimergo combinations don't work perfectly because the non-linearity of a shimano mech is different to that of a campag mech.

However I don't see any obvious change in the basic mech geometry with the new and old campag mechs so if there is a difference I don't think it affects the average and if it does affect the linearity it must be pretty subtle.


It struck me through this though that if it were a spring strength issue then the different eras should be ok one way but not the other i.e. 2011 shifters with 2010 not fine but vice versa fine.. Campagnolo said that neither was possible.


Well a 'new' mech (weak spring) won't necessarily overcome the friction in an 'old' shifter, and (as Graeme said I think) an 'old' mech with a 'new' shifter will result in a shorter life for the shifter internals, which are not designed with the stronger springs in mind. I don't know this for sure but I have always supposed that they will start doing things like multiple upshifts (when you only wanted one) once they are worn. FWIW I think this is bad news not least because on later campag shifters AFAICT they no longer offer small spare parts support; it is a new assembly or nothing.

[edit; BTW one thing that can affect the rear mech's shift ratio and the non-linearity of its movement is where it starts from. If (say) the gear hanger is unusually wide this can make a difference. I've never seen it so bad that it stopped 'matched parts' from working though.]

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

Brucey wrote: ........ the movements are not linear and may well vary with the details of the mech design.
This has been said before ....... and not just by you.

I can't see it myself knowing how the Ergos work. (or at least mine) The ratchet wheel that pulls the cable is circular and the ratchet notches are regular. ie one click equals one pull and all the click/pulls are the same.

Or am I wrong?
If so, why?
Mick F. Cornwall
gfk_velo
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by gfk_velo »

Since I seem to be being used as a stck for various parties to beat each other over the head here, I suppose I'd better weigh in with some kind of clarification and some notes.

Before getting to the technical meat - a couple of comments ...

firstly, for those who have expressed appreciation of my posts here, thank you. I monitor about 20 forums and as a company we are not paid for the time I take in doing that - I do it because I want people to have a good experience with a technical product that I happen to have been involved with for many years - and I get very hacked off when people have issues occasioned by poor or innacurate advice being offered. As a technical consultant, charged with looking after everything from technical education of retailers through to being the "UK Warranty Guy" for the thornier warranty issues that arise, it makes my life easier and in some small way less strssful if there is more good advice than bad out there.

Please bear in mind that the information that I post here comes from the factory - we test most of that information both technically (we measure stuff) and we test it practically (we try stuff) but at base it's from Campagnolo's in-house R and D and Warranty / Service technicians, who as the owners of Campagnolo' main UK Service Centre (a job we've been doing since 2008), we speak to on one matter or another practically every day, if not by voice, then by email.

In general, if I assert that something is the case, you can be pretty sure it is so - I'd be the 1st to admit I have been tripped up once or twice in the past because I haven't adequately checked something I have been told (my bad) but in 99% of cases, what we say is reliable - it has to be - like some others that post here, if I get it wrong, you all have my address!

There is an important caveat to all this and I'll lay it out here because it's perhaps not obvious if you don't occupy a technical role in an bicycle engineering company - full factory testing of all the possible permutations with all the possible frame geometries within (in this case) Campagnolo's overall specification envelope is not always carried out, so the recommendations tend to be to match like-with-like. This is not because alternatives "won't" work but that function within specification can't be guaranteed.

Consider too the effects of wear and tear, manufacturing tolerance and all the other factors outside of the control of the manufacturer, including the range of cometence of the people fitting the equipmeent, the accuracy of manufacture of frames and the like and it becomes clear why the advice will always tend towards the conservative.

Add into the mix the whole area of liability and risk, and you'll see that again, the presumptions made in advice given have to be conservative.

This is generally the case for all manufacturers - consider logically - time and cost prohibit physically testing every possible permutaion.

So, all that having been said ...

Geometry of derailleurs, first:

A design change was made in 2000 / 2001 and a small change in cable pull incriments and correponding mech movement per cable pull incriment was made. It did not impact 10s in any production mech. The change corresponded to the shift from using a "B Tension Screw" to using the "H Screw" on the RD cage to regulate the upper-jockey to sprocket spacing.

Fast forward to MY2007. Xenon through Centaur changed to the Escape-type shifter and at the same time, the derailleur return spring tension changed, being reduced from approx 1200g or pull, to closer to 900g. FD geometry changed at the same time, so that the "QS" type shifters were able to offer a full required movement range for the FD in a single sweep of the finger lever (i.e. full-left to full right" movement of the FD was acheivale with normal (full left) + 3 clicks. It was recommended that for best function and long term durability of the LH upshift lever, this cable tension should be adhered to.

The lighter internal driven by a timed, escapement mechanism (hence, "Escape" would still work with the stronger springs of previous RDs and with the Chorus and Record 10s RDs of that generation but durability of the inne working parts of the levers was identified as a possible long-term problem.

In MY2009, Campagnolo introduced the UltraShift lever in two formats - 10s and 11s. !0s RDs were unchanged in the fist part of the production but a problem became apparent - that the reduced spring tension in the low range 10s derailleurs, (which included the Veloce and Centaur RDs these levers were paired with) could sometimes give an issue with these levers, as the design of the internal uses the rear derailleur spring tension as a helper in it's rotation. Various iterative changes were made in the lever and part way through 2009, a revised version of the Veloce and Centuar RDs was made, using the same return spring as Chorus and Record 10s. This fixed all the issues that users were experiencing which were often attributed to friction based factors, when all other possible causes of inaccurate shifting had been eliminated.

The 11s shifters also had some iterative changes to make them easier for end users to get best results from, as did the RDs. This was also a reaction to the increasing tendency for less straightforward cable routes in frames with internal runs and the like.

FD geometry was changed with the UltraShift lever and the cable pull ratio of QS FDs could be modified using FD-CE011 to slightly re-route the FD cable, so that they gave on-spec performance with UltraShift levers. (NB this same part is now used in 2015 11s FDs for a slightly different purpose).

11s rear parallelogram geometry can be measured as being the same as 10s geometry but Campagnolo themselves have never commented either way, simply because they make a recommendation for matching derailleur "speed" to system and as far as we know, they don't conduct full spectrum testing outside of the intended use .. in the context of time and cost noted above, it's clear to see why this should be so. RD geometry / laver cable recovery is not the only factor in shifting, chain tension, expected chain flexibility range across a range of wear and tear criteria, ramping and shaping of sprockets, exact sprocket spacing and how that spacing might vary according to ratio (and therefore approach angle of the chainto the cassette), etc all need to be considered if as a manufacturer, you are going to say things like "we expect a shift to take "x" microseconds", or "shift can be acheived at "y" applied torque" and so on.

With the introduction of PowerShioft, an Escapement type mechanism and the new generation of 10s dearilleurs to match meant that the matched RDs went back to the ~900g spring tension. Athena 11s likewise was modified to run a lower spring tension. SR. RE and CHO stayed the same at approx 1200g.

Campagnolo started to recommend what we now refer to as the 1kg test at that time, as away to quantify friction in 11s systems and whether a system would shift predicatbaly or not in all specified curcumstances ... hence the apparent anomoly that there are wide reports of Athena RDs adequately driving a Chors, Record or SR shifter - it may well work but not necessaily completely to spec, in all circumstances and in all anticipated states of wear and tear.

So to summarise - except in the case where Campagnolo found some specific problematic circumstances in the field, post launch:

!0s Escape and PowerShift - lower spring tensions on the RD, specific QS FD that can be modified with FD-CE011 to work correctly with PowerShift or the matching UltraShift FDs

10s "Full ErgoPower" and UltraShift - higher spring tension required in the RD, same caveat WRT front mech as above.

Hopefully that (rather long, sorry) post clarifies a few matters.

If you have specific queries I am always prepared to answer PMs or mails to us at Velotech Cycling Ltd.
Head Technician and Director, Velotech Cycling Ltd,
Nationwide modular mechanic's training in all bicycle types
Campagnolo's main factory-appointed UK Technical and Service Centre
rick99
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

Sorry . I appear to have wasted everyone's time here.
Thank you everyone for their replies , particularly gfk_velo
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

gfk_velo wrote:............... Hopefully that (rather long, sorry) post clarifies a few matters ...................
Excellent post. :D
I thank you most sincerely.
Mick F. Cornwall
mattsccm
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by mattsccm »

That bloke needs a medal and that particular post putting in "too good to lose"
markjohnobrien
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by markjohnobrien »

I agree. He made a complete and utter fool of himself with rude, patronising, and, ultimately, incorrect comments.

Poor chap - he didn't seem to realise who GFK Velo was...and, thus, got the wrong end of the stick with Bruceys helpful advice.

Oh well, they must breed them like that in Cambridge :D
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
markjohnobrien
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by markjohnobrien »

Oh yes, and superb information from GFK Velo - definitely, one for too good to lose.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
rick99
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

markjohnobrien wrote:I agree. He made a complete and utter fool of himself with rude, patronising, and, ultimately, incorrect comments.

Poor chap - he didn't seem to realise who GFK Velo was...and, thus, got the wrong end of the stick with Bruceys helpful advice.

Oh well, they must breed them like that in Cambridge :D


I apologised mate.

If it makes you feel better about yourself then it's all been worthwhile anyway.
rick99
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

All I asked was "is this definitely right"

No you're right, I didn't know who he was .

I do think it's really quite interesting that's almost no one else understands this spring issue correctly.

As for the geometry . Campagnolo marketing claimed to have changed it.... It's all obviously marketing spin ... And now I know, which is great.

Oh, and by the way ... I still don't have friction issues
;-)
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

rick99 wrote:Oh, and by the way ... I still don't have friction issues
;-)
That's ok then!

It was just an idea that I explored one sunny day.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

PS.
Just another idea ................

I had to retire my Campag Chorus rear mech last year after just over 20,000miles. The problem was the top pivot had worn and the whole mech was pulled in by the cable rather than all the pull going into the parallelogram. I could possibly have got hold of a new pivot bolt, but it was the housing that seemed to have worn, not the bolt.

The symptoms were:
When in big cog bottom gear, the jockey cage would "tinkle" against the spokes when going hard up a steep hill.
Also, the gear changes coming outward down the block towards the smaller cogs was less than precise.
(This last one seems pertinent to you)

The only cure was to buy a whole new mech. I found the last Campag Comp on the planet I think. Works perfectly. :D
Mick F. Cornwall
rick99
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10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

That's almost telepathic . I don't want to appear to be over compensating in politeness but that is almost exactly what the problem was .... It's a pretty old mech and the jockey wheel was being pulled around by the chain particularly at the low gear extreme.
Initially this made me think maybe something was up with the shift length or geo as it is much more obvious in the biggest sprocket or two (I.e. After 8or 9 shifts).

Ho hum. It's solved with new jockey wheels. Trouble is the 'horses mouth' has now educated me that the old mech will knacker my shifter over time anyway ... So £45 for a new veloce it is.
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