10 speed Campag shifters

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Neil_C69
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Joined: 31 Jul 2014, 8:35pm

Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Neil_C69 »

I have a Moulton TSR30DB it has Campag Ergopower QS 10sp shifters but as of today the Centaur 10sp long cage rear mech has broken (the poorly riveted bit that holds the cage onto main part has popped causing the main spring to shove the chain into the gap between sprockets and spokes).

Therefore which current rear long cage 10sp mechs will work with my setup?

Looking at Veloce as Centaur is expensive and don't want to lash out a lot of money for the same failure 5 years down the road!

Thanks

Neil
AM7
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Location: North West Essex

Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by AM7 »

I can't answer your question Neil, but I can tell you that you should have a medium cage rear mech on a TSR30. A long cage will run very close to the ground with a risk of damage.
Neil_C69
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Neil_C69 »

The present mech has a cage which is about 11.5cm long. I can't seem to find the length of the cages so I assumed it was a long one. Thanks AM7. :-)
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

QS refers to the front mech and LH Ergo.
The rear system isn't QS.
LH Ergo says QS on it, whilst the RH Ergo says 10sp.
The front mech has QS written on it, whilst the rear mechs don't.

In order to get a decent long cage 10sp Campag rear mech, you need to find the Comp version. I reckon I found the last one only a couple of months or so ago.

The lower groups are't so good, so go for Comp or Chorus, but good luck trying to find one, as I think they're all gone. :oops:
Mick F. Cornwall
pete75
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by pete75 »

This should do fine http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-t ... 0000000000 and will work as well as any other Campag rear derailleur.

With Ergos and associated gear mechanisms I've had and used stuff ranging from Mirage to Record and on the road I noticed little difference.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
tatanab
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by tatanab »

Mick F wrote:The lower groups are't so good, so go for Comp or Chorus, but good luck trying to find one, as I think they're all gone. :oops:
Still available from Sprockets. Their ebay listing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Campagnolo-20 ... 1440071401 is cheaper than their regular shop price http://sprockets.uk.com/campagnolo-vintage/ It is funny to see stuff that is only a few years old being called "vintage".
Neil_C69
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Neil_C69 »

The current spec of the Moulton TSR30 is Campag Veloce medium size so I'll go for one of those.
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

tatanab wrote:
Mick F wrote:The lower groups are't so good, so go for Comp or Chorus, but good luck trying to find one, as I think they're all gone. :oops:
Still available from Sprockets. Their ebay listing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Campagnolo-20 ... 1440071401 is cheaper than their regular shop price http://sprockets.uk.com/campagnolo-vintage/ It is funny to see stuff that is only a few years old being called "vintage".
Thanks!
Good link. :D
Mick F. Cornwall
Neil_C69
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Neil_C69 »

I've bought a Veloce medium from Chain reaction as they have an offer of £10 off if you pay through PayPal. Will report back the shifting experience.
rick99
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

gfk_velo wrote:
MartinC wrote:My understanding from that chart was that pre and post 2010 cable pulls were different 'cos the mech geometry was different but the guy from the UK Campagnolo tech centre (is it Velotech?) recently posted here that they are all the same. Must go an find the thread.


All the 10s rear gears have the same movement per cable pull.

What is different is the amount of return spring tension that the rear derailleur has.

For this reason, as the return spring generates tension in the cable and tension in the cable is responsible for some of the lever action, especially in UltraShift levers, the recommendation is that current 10s RDs are not used with UltraShift or with "traditional" Ergopower, as the return spring tension is lower, being optimised for the lighter-action PowerShift levers.

Chorus, Record, Comp and Racing T 10s RDs all shared the same return spring tension and this has never changed - it works fine with all Campag 10s shifters, although again, we don't recommend there stronger-sprung RDs with Escape or PowerShift levers as the plastic internals may suffer from some loss of longevity. 9s RDs were broadly the same in this respect although some changes were made in 2000 when RD geometry was changed. Pre 2000 RDs have a Shimano-type B screw adjuster & won't work with current Ergos unless the lever is modified.

Xenon systems changed to Escape in 2002 and the RD spring tension, which had orginally been the same as Chorus, Record etc. was reduced at that stage. When, Mirage, Veloce and Centaur changed to Escape in 2007, their respective RDs followed suit.

When UltraShift was launched for model year 2009 in Veloce and Centaur(early examples went out OE in late 2008), initially the RDs supplied were just a carry-over from the previous Escape-compatible versions but at the beginning of 2009, Campagnolo realised that due to increased friction in the lever and some other design elements, a stronger spring would be needed so for one model year only, they produced Veloce and Centaur 10s RDs that looked externally like the 2007-2008 version but had a stronger return spring.

For MY2010, the 10s RDs were all redesigned with a similar appearance to the 11s gears but with the same shift geometry as their predecessors, the levers were changed to PowerShift and the springing in the RDs was once again reduced in force.

So, to sum up for the OP and add a couple of other points for others who may have a similar query and trip over this thread:
Chorus, Record, Comp and Racing T - full compatibility with any 10s Ergo but maybe some durability issues with Escape and PowerShit lever internals.

Xenon through Centaur - depending on year, there may and may not be enough "oomph" to shift correctly with all Ergos - it depends a bit on the complexity, "cleanliness" of line and length of the cable run, too, as well as the state of the cable guides and the condition of the cables.

In the context of the OPs query, as I read it, he should probably try and lay his hands on some 10s shifters from the Chorus or Record 10s ranges for maximum durability - there are still plenty about. A swap of jockey wheel bolts and jockeys to the narrower 10s type will possibly bring an improved shift with his current RD as well.

FDs - QS should be used with QS, non-QS should be used with non QS, UltraShift with UltraShift etc to get the shift function as intended. There is no triple compatibility in UltraShift - don't be fooled by the "extra" clicks. There are issues wirh composite inner levers and FDs with inadequate throw which can lead to premature failure of the inner lever.

None of the last generation of 10s Triple RDs (discontinued for MY2015) will handle a 32 "in theory", however there are cases where they will work OK on a 32 rear - it just depends on the exact frame geometry. If the frame geometry is such that a 32 is usable, though, setting the RD up to do this may compromise cleanliness of shift at the other end of the cassette.

Sorry, a bit long but that's the full story ...

HTH
Graeme
Velotech, UK Main Campagnolo SC




Sorry to drag this thread up from the deep blue sea, but are you saying, for veloce/centaur:
pre 2009 weak spring
2009 strong spring
2010 weak spring
what about 2011-end of centaur 10 speed. I thought the spring was a stronger again but you're saying that powershift internals are delicate with a weak rear derailleur to match
It feels like the spring on my mid 2000's rear mech isn't strong enough as it shifts great to bigger cogs but is a bit truculent to smaller ones. maybe the cables etc but I'm trying to work it out. I don't to buy a new centaur rear mech to find it also has 'weak' spring nor buy new cables to find out by trial and time consuming error as normal!
Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Brucey »

you can find out if the shifters or the cables are the culprit by measuring the force required to move the cable and shifter respectively.

When measuring the cable drag, you need to set up a spring balance (or electronic equivalent) at the shifter end (as per the campag workshop manual). If you measure the cable tension (spring force) that the mech exerts (eg when you push the mech by hand and then let it return), and then measure the tension force required to move the mech to a lower gear, you will get two values.

If 'F' is the cable tension generated by the spring in the mech and D is the drag (friction) then the first value is

F - D

and the second value is

F + D.

If D is too high (eg comparable to F) then you have rubbish cables.

If F-D isn't appreciably higher than the force required to cause the shifter internals to move on upshifts, then you have three options;

1) Increase F
2) Decrease D
3) reduce the friction in the shifters

BTW a very simple method of increasing F is to install a small compression type coil spring in the rear mech; this should be installed over the cable inner, where it is exposed, between the pinch bolt and the barrel adjuster. Just choose carefully, so that the spring has enough room to compress fully and still recover.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Mick F
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Mick F »

rick99 wrote:It feels like the spring on my mid 2000's rear mech isn't strong enough as it shifts great to bigger cogs but is a bit truculent to smaller ones.
Just a little interjection here with respect to your statement.

A spring is a spring.
Friction is the enemy.

Inside the Ergo, there is a spiral spring that tightens up as the gear-shift goes outwards to the smaller cogs.
This tends to compensate/counteract the rear mech's spring. The tighter the rear mech spring goes, the looser the spiral spring.

Maybe the intention of Mr Campag was to give a neutral feel to the gear change?

Therefore, I reckon it's just possible that your Ergo is to blame and not the rear mech ........... or it could even be your cable. There is an interesting thread on here - Brucey may remember it? - where I experimented on cable drag. Mr Campag in his wisdom has a specification for cable drag versus rear mech spring.

I hung a measured weight off the cable at the Ergo end to see how it "balanced" the rear mech spring considering the friction in the cables.

If it ain't the cable, it's the Ergo ....................... and not the rear mech.
Mick F. Cornwall
rick99
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by rick99 »

That extra Spring suggestion is a great idea.

What I was really trying to do is to find out from a campagnolo expert why campagnolo themselves say that the 2 eras of 10 speed are not compatible or indeed whether it's just 2011/2010 .

They changed the parellogram... It might have some effect .

I think there's more to it than the spring in the rear mech, that's all.
Brucey
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by Brucey »

rick99 wrote:What I was really trying to do is to find out from a campagnolo expert why campagnolo themselves say that the 2 eras of 10 speed are not compatible or indeed whether it's just 2011/2010 .....


well in GFK Velo's post you have it from the horse's mouth...

cheers
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De Sisti
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Re: 10 speed Campag shifters

Post by De Sisti »

pete75 wrote:This should do fine http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-t ... 0000000000 and will work as well as any other Campag rear derailleur.

With Ergos and associated gear mechanisms I've had and used stuff ranging from Mirage to Record and on the road I noticed little difference.

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