Hi vis jacket

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mjr
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by mjr »

sloblock100 wrote:GET YOURSELF SEEN! Cyclists Get Yourself Seen: http://youtu.be/1MFuSMz1zh0

40 years of victim-blaming. How's that working for us?
Image
Not well. When will this country start to blame the killers?

15 November, National Funeral For The Unknown Victim Of Traffic Violence, meet noon at Bedford Square, London. https://www.facebook.com/events/620158668053003/
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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sadken
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by sadken »

mjr wrote:
sloblock100 wrote:GET YOURSELF SEEN! Cyclists Get Yourself Seen: http://youtu.be/1MFuSMz1zh0

40 years of victim-blaming. How's that working for us?
Image
Not well. When will this country start to blame the killers?

15 November, National Funeral For The Unknown Victim Of Traffic Violence, meet noon at Bedford Square, London. https://www.facebook.com/events/620158668053003/

Did u even watch the youtube video?
It was meant as a bit of fun!
Hi Brid!
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mjr
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by mjr »

I watched the video, but actually I'm old enough to remember it on TV. It just made me angry that we keep repeating the same actions in hope of a different result. Enough. Time to do things different and save some lives. See you in London!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
edocaster
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by edocaster »

mjr wrote:
sloblock100 wrote:GET YOURSELF SEEN! Cyclists Get Yourself Seen: http://youtu.be/1MFuSMz1zh0

40 years of victim-blaming. How's that working for us?
Image
Not well. When will this country start to blame the killers?

15 November, National Funeral For The Unknown Victim Of Traffic Violence, meet noon at Bedford Square, London. https://www.facebook.com/events/620158668053003/


Surely that chart just shows that fewer people are dying in cars compared to nine years ago?
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Cunobelin
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by Cunobelin »

edocaster wrote:
mjr wrote:
sloblock100 wrote:GET YOURSELF SEEN! Cyclists Get Yourself Seen: http://youtu.be/1MFuSMz1zh0

40 years of victim-blaming. How's that working for us?
Image
Not well. When will this country start to blame the killers?

15 November, National Funeral For The Unknown Victim Of Traffic Violence, meet noon at Bedford Square, London. https://www.facebook.com/events/620158668053003/


Surely that chart just shows that fewer people are dying in cars compared to nine years ago?


Which raises the question why?

There is a system of everlasting cars called EuronCap

One of the measurements is about how the car reduces the damage to pedestrian should there be a collision

Despite all the known design and technology there are vehicles that score a big fat zero... no redeeming features at all in the design, absolutely nothing is done to improve the
chancres of survival or decrease the injuries of a pedestrian, cyclist or other vulnerable road user in collision with the vehicle.

In fact we allow some vehicles on the road that are increasing the damage to vulnerable road users in order to increase the safety of the driver and occupants.


To paraphrase Clotaire Rappaile the guy who led the SUV fashion in the US

"These vehicles are driven by those people who know they are bad drivers and who know they are going to accidents. It is all about making sure that when the accident happens the other guy comes off worse
Psamathe
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:Image

Whilst I don't dispute that things are bad/getting worse/etc., graphs like above have quite a lot of shortcomings in illustrating the issue. e.g. it does not consider the number of users/miles/journeys for the mode of transport. If hypothetically the number of cyclists/cycle journeys/cycle miles/etc. had quadrupled over the period then the accident rate would actually show an improvement. If the number of pedestrians/pedestrian miles/pedestrian journeys/etc. had halved then pedestrians have a cause for concern.

I can see that car KSI would reduce through improved car design and safety features (air bags, better protection through crumple zones, better braking, etc). So in some regards one needs to make an allowance for the effect of those benefits. I suspect (no evidence, only personal opinion only) that were those considerations included then car KSIs would be a lot worse ('cos driving standards are so bad these days - but maybe it's just me being cynical).

Again, not doubting that something needs to be done to help protect vulnerable roads users but unconvinced by the graph. But maybe it stems from the lack of data about non-motorised transport (e.g. how many bikes/pedestrians are there on the roads, how many journeys are they making, how many miles are they using, etc.).

Ian
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mjr
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by mjr »

As usual: feel free to post whatever graphs you feel are informative.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Psamathe
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:As usual: feel free to post whatever graphs you feel are informative.

I'm afraid I can offer nothing better. And my impression is that the necessary data has not been collected. Gov. probably has really good data for powered vehicles (through road tax, MOT system registering odometer readings, etc.), but I'm not heard of even pretty basic data collected about other road users. Questionnaires to groups but they would fall very short of any raw data for comparisons and changes over time.

But then I don't spend much/any time searching out such information.

Ian
irc
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by irc »

mjr wrote:40 years of victim-blaming. How's that working for us?


In the last 40 yrs since 1974 cycling distance roughly stable. Cyclist fatalities down by around 2/3rds. Seems to have worked OK.

http://www.rospa.com/about/currentcampaigns/publichealth/info/rs2-factsheet.pdf
http://www.rospa.com/about/currentcampaigns/publichealth/info/rs2-factsheet.pdf
Vladimir
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by Vladimir »

Mick F wrote:So why is Hi Vis recommended and sold?
If research shows that it doesn't reduce the chance of injury, why does it exist?
Why do the police and emergency services wear it?


Why is it sold? Why is anything sold? Because people will buy it. A bike specific example is tyres with tread. Consumers think tread is necessary, so it ends up on almost all tyres. There are other examples, such as when you got to any pet shop and on display you will see tiny 14 litre fishtanks. The hardcore fish keepers will tell you that such a small tank is not suitable for keeping fish, no matter how few. Toxic substances rise to high levels very quickly, and it's not enough space, from a humane point of view. Why do they sell these, then?! Because it's not illegal and people think a small fish tank is easy to care for, and they're cheaper, and parents will buy these and let their children go through a phase of keeping a few goldfish that die one after another (I wonder why!) and then it ends up in the jumble sale. Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there, but you get my point, hopefully? For those that are interested, the minimum recommended size of fish tank for beginners is about 30 litres.

Why do police/emergency services wear it? I would suggest that there's a whole industry based around it. Some higher ups greased some other higher ups and now hi-vis is a legal requirement. Meanwhile the CEO of 3M/scotchlite is doing rather well out of the whole thing. I can imagine that the sales to companies that need to supply hi vis to their staff hugely outnumber a handful of cyclists that buy hi vis clothing. This is all just a theory and postulation, but I would not be surprised in the least. Let's think about the official police motorcycles for a moment. Around 5-7 years ago the contract to supply police motorcycles went out to tender (not sure whether this was country-wide, but I think it was). Guess who won it - BMW! I do believe that Triumph, a british company also went for the contract and was in fact offering their motorcycles for less to the police, with bikes built locally, and certainly a good local infrastructure to fix anything that went wrong with a huge fleet of motorcycles. In the end they went with BMW. I don't know about you, but I think a few palms got greased here and there in order to make that happen!

It's been a huge, tangent laden post. Thanks for reading.
TonyR
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by TonyR »

Psamathe wrote:Whilst I don't dispute that things are bad/getting worse/etc., graphs like above have quite a lot of shortcomings in illustrating the issue. e.g. it does not consider the number of users/miles/journeys for the mode of transport. If hypothetically the number of cyclists/cycle journeys/cycle miles/etc. had quadrupled over the period then the accident rate would actually show an improvement. If the number of pedestrians/pedestrian miles/pedestrian journeys/etc. had halved then pedestrians have a cause for concern.


I think this is the graph you are looking for:

Screen Shot 2014-10-27 at 07.24.35.png
TonyR
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by TonyR »

Here's one to throw the cat among the pigeons.

Screen Shot 2014-10-27 at 07.30.55.png


HES are the hospital admissions data for seriously injured cyclists
STATS19 are the police recorded serious injuries at the scene.

I can't find it at the moment but there is data that shows the decline in cyclist ksi reported annually from the STATS19 was not matched by the non-reported hospital recorded ksi.

EDIT: Found it

Screen Shot 2014-10-27 at 07.37.54.png


And before you put the difference down to off-road and cyclist only accidents:

Screen Shot 2014-10-27 at 07.30.55.png
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Screen Shot 2014-10-27 at 07.41.16.png
ndmbike
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by ndmbike »

Lots of really interesting posts... much to think about...

Anecdotally though...
Last week driving home from town, did that 'stealth cyclist' wearing black, no lights, dark bike, who 'undertook' me realise how close he was to being flattened under my wheels? Luckily I am paranoid about cyclist safety and braked sharply so missed him.
On tour in the UK, I saw him, he saw me, I slowed down and tried to squeeze into the side of the road but there was a dry stone wall and didn't want to clip it with my pannier... He carried on overtaking the three vehicles in front of him and somehow squeezed into the gap so there were two vehicles and me abreast on a narrow road with walls on either side. 15 seconds of trouser filling terror for me! A cool maneuver for him!
The next day, bored of 'close overtaking cars' I moved over into the middle of the road ---- Fewer cars tried to squeeze past - life became so much better for me... though a few motorists had to wait a few extra seconds to find a suitable passing point.

Maybe it is more about the way we behave on the road than what we wear?
beardy
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by beardy »

It is but one does not negate the other.

I often deter oncoming cars from overtaking by riding in the middle of my lane rather than "inviting" them through by keeping squeezed into the left. They may (or may not) find it easier to see me if I am wearing a Hi-viz. Personally I think that there may be a few occasions where it makes a difference but they are rare enough to be dwarfed by other factors. That doesnt mean that they do not exist.
irc
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Re: Hi vis jacket

Post by irc »

TonyR wrote:Here's one to throw the cat among the pigeons......... I can't find it at the moment but there is data that shows the decline in cyclist ksi reported annually from the STATS19 was not matched by the non-reported hospital recorded ksi.


But the HES data for other user groups doesn't match Stats 19 data either because they are two different subsets. And it may be both the HES and Stats 19 which have issues. According to the DfT

For example, there have been a number of known changes in hospital practices and data systems in recent years. Our 2006 report
considered factors affecting the HES data, which imply care is needed when using it for trend analysis.


As discussed in previous years’ articles, the increase in admissions between 2002 and 2005
appears to be associated with changes in hospital practices, in particular an increase in the
proportion of inpatients admitted for short periods. This is likely to relate to
increasing numbers being admitted to short-stay wards from Accident and Emergency for observation
and assessment. Therefore, the trend shown by HES in Chart3 probably does not equate to a genuine rise in
serious road casualties.


The Dft suggest using HES data for hospital admissions for 2+ days may be a better comparison.

HES V Stats 19.jpg




https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 011-06.pdf
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